Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 6:29 AM, NoOp <glgxg@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 03/10/2011 05:09 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 6:17 AM, NoOp <glgxg@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > On 03/09/2011 06:16 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> [...]
> > > to share your expertise with us, without calling people stupid or
> > > ignorant, come back & feel free to comment.
> >
> > They /are/ stupid, as they don't bother to read instructions. No
> > excuse at all for this.
> > They might be very intelligent otherwise, but when it comes to
> > unsubscribing, they're too ignorant.
>
> Really? I suppose that you/we could dig up the archives and take a look.
> I reckon that in the majority of cases the issue is with users that are
> not experienced with mail lists.

So what? That explains why people don't read instructions they even
get with *every* mail?
It is not a matter of being experienced with lists or not. It only
requires knowing how to read.

> But then again, when you have a broken
> system that: 1) allows unsubscribed users to begin with,

You still fail to describe why this is a broken system.

> and 2) have a
> link on your (OOo) support page that simply states:
> [...]
> "You need to subscribe to the list first before you can post a question."

Yes, this is written so that people register in te first place. And
when you subscribe, you the unsubscribing instructions right away.

> However that doesn't seem to be that case, does it? Unsubscribed users
> are (as in the OOo case) are posting away on the lists.

You make it sound like those would send tenths of messages while not
being subscribed. If this is the case, then it's the moderator's
fault. (well, if they don't care moderating those its their decision,
but of course when one person keeps posting while not being
subscribed, the moderator should either ask that person to subscribe,
or add that person to the allowed posters list (on mlmmj this would be
the same as a "nomail" subscription, i.e. you don't receive mail from
the list, but are allowed to post nevertheless.

> > /NEVER EVER/ has there been a technical problem with unsubscribing. It
>
> Really? I think that you are mistaken. There are multiple posts from
> long time OOo users (that can read) that have had issues with
> unsubscribing.

Again. what were the technical reasons? Show me. I'm sure it always
boils down to the person not *reading* the mailfooter, the
instructions that are part of /every/ mail.

Again the only "problems" are not understanding english (doesn't apply
to the english user list), the confirmation mail of the list being
treated as spam and using the wrong mail-address, i.e. trying to
unsubscribe an address that isn't subscribed to begin with.

> No disputing that you'll get those for the very reasons I've mentioned.
> So what are the plans to prevent that happening on the LO lists?

*Nothing* can prevent stupidity. You claimed a direct unsubscribe link
(instead of the get-instruction ones the LibO list have now) would
prevent complaints, and you referred to the OOo project in this
regard. And my response is: This just doesn't work, you cannot use
common sense when you have to deal with a huge crowd. There are always
jerks. Even when 99% don't have any problem whatsoever, the remaining
1% will complain even louder, no matter what you do.

> And I'd ask again: you have experience on the OOo user list?

Show me concrete examples please. I'd be very, very, very surprised if
the OOo users list should be any different from the tenths of other
lists.

> Really? Perhaps you'd care to rethink that. When you have a link on the
> support page that hooks inexperienced users up to a list you'll
> experience the problem whether they speak english or not. See the
> mention of the LO help info above.

No, I definitely don't rethink that. The problem is (and will *always*
be people too ignorant/lazy/stupid to read the instructions.

Mailing lists use double-opt-in (and double-opt-out) for a reason.
*NO* user will be subscribed (and thus might get tons of messages from
the list) without completing the subscription process.
This process requires sending an explicit mail to the subscription
address. This address has no other form than the ubsubscribe address.
When you manage to send a mail to the subscription address, then
you'll manage to send one to the unsubscribe address (and no matter
how often Florian mentions problems with gmail and the "+" in the
address: There is no such problem. I absolutely have no clue where
Florian did get that idea from).

Also included with that mail are instructions on how to unsubscribe.
With the direct address. So how can you continue to claim that the
problem would not be "people are not reading instructions".

Yes, the one mail you get might be forgotten after a while, but still,
*every* mail to the list has instructions in the footer. Again: How
can you continue to state that the people's inability (or better
unwillingness, ignorance, stupidity) to read the mail that bothers
them so match is to account for their "problem" of not knowing how to
unsubscribe?

Again: No matter how fat discaimers or how often you write
instructions on the website: You will *always* have to deal with
stupid people. And I'll continue to call them stupid. It's not a
matter of intelligence, your grades in school or whatever - it is an
attitude problem (I know everything, thus I don't need to read
instructions, I know how to drive a car, so how hard can email be.
Gosh, I'm receiving so much mail from that list, STOP IT. Wait, they
didn't stop despite my request, so "STOP IT, OR I'LL SUE YOU"... Man,
such an a*hole, telling me to read.. Crap, he's right, but I no way I
could admit that, because I'd then look like a total idiot, let's
pretend I actually did do that... "IDIOT, THAT'S WHAT I TRIED, IT
DIDN'T WORK!!!".....

If however someone who actually tried to unsubscribe before mails the
list, then it goes somewhat like this
* "Hi, I tried to unsubscribe by sending mail to <...>, but it didn't work"
# Did you look in the spam folder? You still need to reply to the
confirmation that the mailinglist sends
* D'oh, I thought the mail I got was already the confirmation, Thanks!
or
* Ah, yes, there it is. Indeed it was caught in the spamfilter
or
* Nothing anymore, since the person managed to unsubscribe without
sending another mail.

ciao
Christian.

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