Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters

 On 10/15/2010 5:00 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> Hi Barbara, Charles, all,
>
> having read the threads on discuss@OOo during the last months I know about the problems with 
> unsubscribed posters there and the off-topic messages just informing the list to CC the 
> unsubscribed OP.
>
> Barbara Duprey schrieb:
> > On 10/15/2010 11:58 AM, Charles Marcus wrote:
> > > On 2010-10-15 9:58 AM, James Wilde wrote:
> > > > On Oct 15, 2010, at 13:43 , Charles Marcus wrote:
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > Doesn't it make more sense just to modify the Reply-To header (to
> > > > > both the list and the OP) and let the mail client just do the right
> > > > > thing?
> > > > You mean automatically, or in the copy of the message that comes to
> > > > the moderators? I didn't think that any changes one made to this
> > > > would percolate through to the message subsequently posted to the
> > > > list, but I'm willing to try.
> > > Yes, automatically... if the list software cannot do it natively, then
> > > someone could write a custom handler (at least in mailman you can do
> > > this, if exmlm can't then thats another reason to change) that would
> > > accept posts from non-members, but with some extra processing where it
> > > modified the Reply-To headers.
> > > The reason allowing non-members to post is a problem (endless questions
> > > and explanations) is *because* these messages are currently handled
> > > manually.
>
> Sorry, but I see it differently:
>
> While you seem to think of the best way the user get the information asked for, this is not the 
> main reason for a users mailing list.
>
> I'm probably not the only community member starting his "OOo career" with a question on the users 
> list.
>
> It's one of the main possibilities to find non-coding community members (besides documentation).

[Bernhard, I'm not sure you actually saw my post == it's all snipped here. But I think it's 
pertinent to some of your points.]

I'm sure you're not the only one to use the list this way, but I'm pretty sure that investigation 
would show two main motivations: getting answers to questions, and learning about the capabilities 
and possible difficulties of the software (and that kind of user would almost certainly subscribe). 
Participation would generally come later, when people are more familiar with the software and the 
community.

> I'd rather propose to state clearly on the website the different ways for getting user support:
>
> - People hesitant to subscribe to the mailing list should ask their questions on the forum.

In my experience, people are much less hesitant to subscribe to a mailing list than to learn about 
forum use (many more people use e-mail than forums) and identify the proper forum to use for their 
question. All of OOo (or LibO) is just "it"!

> - If users want to ask their question on the mailing list, they should subscribe IMHO and find out 
> how our community works.

The main issue here is the volume of mail on the most likely lists (users and discuss). Many of 
these folks are not especially (or even somewhat!) tech savvy; they just want to get an answer to a 
question, not wade through lots of things of no interest to them. I'll bet many don't know how to 
set up filters so all the list mail stays separate from their regular mail, and they quite likely 
don't even understand threading. When they've subscribed, and gotten swamped and/or irritated, we 
get "unsubscribe me" requests/demands.

> With the information by the moderators they will have the chance to get all the replies from the 
> archive or subscribe and perhaps become a community member.

The main problem I see with directing them to the archive is that in a large number of cases, 
they're asked to supply additional information so we can help, and the archive is not set up for 
that (at least, the OOo one isn't).

> I don't want the "OP is not subscribed. Please CC him" mails on this mailing list and the 
> discussions about the necessity for them.

I agree this is not good -- but at the moment no really satisfactory alternative has been developed. 
That's why these discussions keep occurring.

> Who ever wants to CC him can do so, but without bothering others.

It is often not clear whether or not the OP is subscribed -- many can't/won't look at the full 
headers or filter on them, and sometimes they join the discussion later, when the header is not 
available. For somebody who really has an interest in the "care and feeding" of currently 
unsubscribed users, so they can eventually be brought into the community, or at least be happy with 
the software, this means that the OP may well be dissatisfied. They don't get answers, and assume we 
don't care.

> Helping users with their questions is just one task of our mailing lists. Involving them with the 
> community is another - in my eyes at least equal important!
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard

--
E-mail to discuss+help@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe
List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted