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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mail List issues


Hello,

NoOp wrote on 2011-03-10 06.10:

No idea&  no real preference other than the ablity for the user to login
and modify their profile settings&  subscribe/unsubscribe. That said I

Which settings do you want to user to change? Basically, only his address as well as the subscription type, or anything else?

find it hard to believe that you couldn't have mailman accounts for each
list. Ubuntu have many:

Yes. But it would *not* be possible to have something like @de.libreoffice.org, @it.libreoffice.org or @us.libreoffice.org then, at least not as we have it now. Look at the Ubuntu page. All lists reside at the same subdomain. Quoting from the Mailman wiki: "The recommended method to support multiple virtual hosts without list name collisions with Mailman 2.1.x is to run a separate Mailman instance for each virtual host." This would mean we have about 20-30 different Mailman instances...

Then my recommendation is to find something else, as the inability of
the user to manager their list settings is a problem.

If you have a good proposal, let me know. We, however, tried every solution, and mlmmj seemed best. What we, and that's where I agree with you, need is some web interface that helps users in managing their subscriptions.

It doesn't if it doesn't allow the user to modify their mail list
preferences&  settings, and/or unsubscribe/subscribe without jumping
through hoops.

Ok, then let me know what is so complicated? "Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+help@documentfoundation.org" => Then you receive an e-mail how it works. So, again, what is complicated about that?

And that is relevent to my questions how?

It explains why some people have problems in unsubscribing. If they click the "+" link and Google silently ignores it, of course you cannot unsubscribe then without manual interacton.

Perhaps it is because by the time the reach point of unsubscribing to
the list(s) that they don't want to read? Don't know, but if the
unsubscribe/subscribe information were posted on the website mail list
area maybe they could instead be referred to that instead of some
special email?

If someone comes up with such a page, I am happy to add them to the footer. But my bet is, people would act the same way. It's no different to my experience with OOo, the amount of people having issues with mailing lists is not that small. No matter what you do.

How about tagging moderated messages so that subscribed users know that
the post is from a unsubscribed poster and has been forwarded by a
moderator? It's rather simple: just as a [Moderated] tag to the subject
of the message.

As said, we would have to iplement that ourselves. So, if there's a volunteer, willing to work on the mlmmj source code, I am happy install a patch. Sadly, no mailing list system I know of provides that, but it would indeed be a great feature.

Then if the mandate is to allow unsubscribed posts, *please* identify
the post as such with a [Moderated] tag in the subject. As you may/or
may not have witnessed on the OOo list over the past 5 years or so, this
issue has been a subject of contention that raises it's ugly head at
least once a month. The general consensus was to allow unsubscribed
posters; the key problem was/is that there was/is no easy way to know if
the post came from such. So folks send off a reply only to be told later
that the time they took to respond fell on deaf ears because the OP was
from someone not subscribed to the list. They then have to decide
whether they wish to reforward their response to the Unsub, or just move on.

I agree that this would be helpful, it just has to be developed, as no mailing list manager provides it out of the box. My take would be, btw, to add the information to the message body, in order to not break threading with a modified subject. Again, if someone wants to come up with a patch that does it, you're welcome! See http://mlmmj.org/bugs/bug.php?id=20

Why is Google even an issue, or brought up? I don't understand the
comment. I see users on the user list that have no relation to gmail or
Google. So something else must be broken in the process.

From what I know, there exist three major problems, which are all outside our scope:

1. Google Mail archives e-mails one has sent to the lists, so people think their mail did not made it to the list.

2. Google Mail and Yahoo sometimes seem to have problems with the "+" addressing. Clear violation of the RFC.

3. Some French providers block our e-mails, for no obvious reason, and without replying to e-mails to the postmaster. Clear violation of the RFC, but seems to be better or even fixed now.

These are the existing problems I know of, but there of course may be more.

Is it a limitation for mlmmj, or can the instructions that are received
in the email be posted on the website?

Sure they can. If someone comes up with a website, I am happy to link to it in the footer. I just doubt it will help much...

I don't dare. Can you post the instructions/response here?

Sure. An empty e-mail to users+help@libreoffice.org brings

==
The following options are available:

To unsubscribe send a message to:

users+unsubscribe@libreoffice.org

To unsubscribe from the digest of this list send a message to:

users+unsubscribe-digest@libreoffice.org

To unsubscribe from the "nomail" version this list send a message to:

users+unsubscribe-nomail@libreoffice.org
==

Nor do I. But obviouly someone with mlmmj experience helped to
decide/setup the list(s). Can we get them to assist?

I evaluated a variety of solutions, and mlmmj came out to be the best. I disabled digest subscriptions in the beginning, but many people demanded them, so I re-enabled them.

I see that you made one post on the OOo user list back in 2005:
Subject: Re: Ergebnis der DE Co-Lead Wahl
(and of course I know about your posts on the OOo releases list),
so it is apparent that you've never spent time nor participated on the
OOo user list. Your comment(s) are both offensive and display ignorance
of the issues.

Christian is one of the most active and longest standing contributors to not only the German, but also the international OOo community. Together with me and Stefan Taxhet from Oracle, he was also in charge for the infrastructure budget. I'm not commenting on the language (you also insulted me above, so don't throw the first stone), but he surely knows what he is doing in technical terms.

In a nutshell: Four things can help, and if someone works on them, that would be welcome

        1. A website explaining the unsubscription mechanism
        2. A web interface for moderators and users of the lists
        3. A patch to tag moderated messages
4. A patch to improve the unsubscription mechanism, so that unsubscribe always unsubscribes you from everything, as long as you just have one type of list subscription

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <floeff@documentfoundation.org>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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