Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Referencing systems and bibliographies in LO

On 07/15/2012 09:02 AM, lj wrote:
> In response to Fabian:
>
> Proposing ideas and bug fixes and changes in proprieterary software
> probably isn't the right direction unless libreoffice have developers that
> are working in partnership on referencing systems in proprieterary
> software. Which I believe at this stage they do not.
We agree on that.

Before going any further, I'd urge you to follow Charles advice and
formalize a wiki document with your ideas/proposal. Otherwise this will
live and die here in the mailing list unless there is some extraordinary
new, numerous groups of LibreOffice + bibliography users here :) Keep in
mind you may be proposing something that already exists in other
projects (see below).

> I understand your example with microsoft onenote. A program I have used
> myself, and I can understand its innovation and ideas, but that software
> has broadened markets such as being available on different hardware, etc
> the iOS platform and the Internet with storage of Microsoft skydrive.
My main criteria for using software is it must be free, open source.
Close second is being as good or better. If you look at mobile
applications for Zotero, you'll see you can also use OwnCloud to store
its database of documents - hosted on your own server. I try to
reproduce the same functionality, or better, with free, open source
software integration. I briefly comment on such experiments either on
JoinDiaspora or G+:
https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1737364
https://plus.google.com/102415554453485274892/posts/PskhYYaDMaR

Of course the feature set *at the moment* is not complete. But it's more
often than not dictated by actual needs of its users, not mostly by
Microsoft or some other corporation which motivation #1 (and obligation
to shareholders) is profit. I also have greater influence and chances to
get fixes in such projects.

With this in mind I find it more productive to bring closer the
communities of existing products like Zotero, OwnCloud and LibreOffice,
and have them build on each other's work. The goal that you are seeking
then looks closer to me.

If I were to propose something to LibreOffice devs, it would be to
*completely remove the current bibliographic support* and
embrace/extend/integrate Zotero into LibO, perhaps as a default 3rd
party extension (much like happened recently with some grammar/spelling
dictionaries I believe). The current functionality is broken, unreliable
and requires careful understanding to wrok at a basic level, nevermind
at the same level as Zotero (with social sharing, remote storage,
standard formats, etc.).

> In regards to the referencing system in LO. zotero is an extension that I
> have used with LO.  Although it works very well with compatability with  LO
> its referencing systems are incompatible with Microsoft office. I think
> that is an issue with LO, and Microsoft office referencing systems. I will
> confirm this from a email from zotero about this issue.
In my opinion you will get limited success and progress with this
approach. With the limited resources TDF has, I doubt any developer will
be working to make it easier for you to stay working with MS Office. A
better use of such resources would be to demonstrate and advocate the
use of Zotero + LibreOffice to your peers (or in the environment where
you seem to have no choice) - and fix whatever is missing to make it
easier for MS Office/Notes users to leave that platform.

> As a result, I believe this is a main issue and concern with referencing
> systems in LO.  compatability with properitary software referencing systems
> etc MO.
Interoperability is important, but in this case I believe the main issue
is a component that is not critical to 100% of LIbO users, and several
interesting alternatives (including Zotero). So this is not going to get
critical priority assignment, IMO.
> Referencing systems and making bibliographies I believe in LO needs to be
> created for users with a simplistic default interface without add ons and
> extensions to avoid in compatability with different versions of software
> releases from zotero and LO.
You're describing what Zotero already does (including plugins!). Why
duplicate efforts? See my rationale above about getting those projects
working together, rather than reinventing such tools.


> My problem is having a reference from libreoffice and trying to use it on
> Mo. it is not compatible.
LibreOffice happens to have a basic tool for a bibliography database.
The problem is not incompatibility, the problem is having the
expectation it will become One Note (which is primarily to take notes,
not references, as I understand it) overnight (or "soon").

> But. The only way to make the software more compatible for users is to
> propose a new referencing system in libreoffice, that would allow the
> document to be read in a format in which both office suites would
> understand. An example would be PDF and integrating referencing
> compatabilities in a PDF.  or referencing systems with .doc files.
> I'm still not clear about this topic.
I suppose that's possible, give OneNote's format:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onenote#File_format

I'd argue with the limited/basic implementation in LibreOffice, you'd
have better chances to convince Zotero devs to approach this. Even then,
you would not be the first:
http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/4007/onenote-support/

Microsoft Word already "understands" Zotero quite well, BTW - via the
clipboard. Are you allowed to use a thirs party tool like Zotero at all?
> LO needs a new default  referencing system because I believe it is not
> clear enough or fast enough to store references for users using libreoffice
> writer. There are some confusing steps involved including using the
> bibliographic database where functions do not make sense.

My opinion on this as I wrote above is it should be completely removed.

> LO should consider options I believe to make referencing separate from
> libreoffice base and making  2 referencing systems. One that integrates a
> utility with storing references using endnotes and footnotes with a simpler
> and faster design that can be used for advanced users in base to store
> multiple references for a main project, with a design that is based on the
> storage of references only. This can be from books images videos and
> websites.  and a simpler system for users that want to generate a reference
> that is created with the usage of forms and detailed texts that can be
> linked to end notes and footnotes without the reference being stored in
> libreoffice base.
I encourage you to make a formal proposal, but *please* use Zotero for a
few weeks first/meanwhile.

Most of your ideas seem to be already implemented there and I fear the
LibO project could use your help in many more productive ways!

Cheers,

Fabian Rodriguez
http://libreoffice.magicfab.ca




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