Re: [tdf-discuss] List available at GMANE

Hi Larry,

Larry Gusaas schrieb:
> On 2010/10/09 3:47 PM Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> > Larry Gusaas schrieb:
> > > Then why did you set up Gmane in the first place? Why not do it
> > > properly in the first place?
> >
> > Because it's an external resource. Mailing lists are the center of
> > our community's activity, so we can't give away it's maintenance
> > again (we saw what happened in the past).
>
> What would you be giving away?

Maintenance and control over the content of the archives. Will Gnome
store them for tenths of years? at the same place?

> As for the past, I do not know what you mean.

In this case it is not easy to discuss this topic with you, because you
don't know about the necessities for our mailing lists either.

The OpenOffice.org lists have been hosted by CollabNet, that had
restrictions in list management (language dependent information mails
just to mention one point). We asked them several times for
improvements, but changes have been very hard to achieve (if at all).

> Gmane is the simplest way to follow OOo groups and would be the
> simplest way to follow this and other LibreOffice lists without
> having to deal with a ton of emails every day.

Please consider, that this position is your own personal opinion.
Many other people think differently. I need to download the mails, 
because I have to work offline some time. Others have very limited and 
unreliable online connections.

Gmane is probably not the simplest way to manage mailing list even if 
you consider it to be the best way for you to read them.

So I don't understand why you insist on this point instead of just 
unsubscribing and re-subscribing with the nomail-option that allows you 
to send to the list (via Gmane or directly) without receiving *any* of 
the list mails.
> Are you referring to the problem of unsubscribed posters on OOo?

No
> [...]
>
> > So please tell them or change the information, if you can do it on
> > your own.
>
> I have no authority to do anything for Document Foundation.

You don't need to have any authority to ask Gmane to add a phrase to the 
list information.

You are part of the community and you are not only allowed to discuss 
your thoughts on our lists, but to help the community to grow and work 
on their main directive: To create the best and most used free office 
suite in the world.

This doesn't mean that you have the right to tell anybody that your 
opinion is the official position of the Document Foundation.

But you have the right to talk inside and outside of the community about 
the Document Foundation and LibreOffice.

You are very well allowed to inform Gmane, that (at least at the moment) 
it is necessary to subscribe to the mailing lists if you want to send 
messages. But you should add, that this is very easy, because if people 
subscribe via discuss+subscribe-nomail@documentfoundation.org they will 
not receive any mail from the list.

> I did
> send Gmane an email, according to the following instructions on
> http://gmane.org/post.php:
>
> If, however, the group is neither read-only nor non-public, Gmane
> will forward the message to the mailing list (after going through
> the authorization process described above). The message still might
> not be accepted by the mailing list. This is usually because the list
>  really is non-public,

In our case this is assumption is wrong: It just needs a subscription on 
it's own.

> [...]
>
> > I don't have the time to do so and it seems to be much more
> > important to you.
>
> It is important that people who prefer to use Gmane instead of
> receiving emails be able to do so simply. I originally subscribed to
> the email list. When Gmane became available, I started using it and
> unsubscribed to the list. When I couldn't post through Gmane I
> re-subscribed to the list. Later I unsubscribed again and then
> subscribed to the nomail list.

So you already have got what you want: Reading through Gmane, posting to 
the list and not getting any mail from the list.

Why do you insist on the necessity of unsubscribed postings through Gmane?

The following point is the only one I think should be worked on in short 
time:
> There is no indication on your webpage or on Gmane to indicate that
> you have to subscribe to the mailing list to post through Gmane, as
> I stated before.

So we need to put this information there. I'll try to reach one of the 
website managers to add this line and I asked you to do so at the Gmane 
side.

> Indeed there should be no need to do so.

I could imagine that we will be able to change this once we stopped 
fighting the much more important topics at the beginning of the 
Foundation's existence.

If you don't know by now: All the activities in the foundation have to 
be done by volunteers in their spare time. So please bare with us, if we 
can't do everything at the same time.
> Having to jump through hoops like this and getting responses like
> yours lowers my desire to have any thing to do with Document
> Foundation

I'm sorry to hear that, because I took much more of my time than I 
wanted to in order to describe the way we work here at the community and 
why we think nomail subscription is a minor task for the people 
interested in using Gmane.
> > > In fact Gmane explicitly states that you can post, both on the
> > > web page, "Status posting allowed" and in the email Gmane sends
> > > after you subscribe through this list through gmane "You are now
> > > authorized to post to the gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss
> > > newsgroup."
> >
> > As it was mentioned in two postings in this thread, this
> > information should be changed at Gmane.
> >
> > Could you please take care of this task?
>
> I do not have any authority to do so.

You don't need any authority to tell the Gnome people how this process 
is done here at the moment.

Nobody is telling you that this will not be changed in future, but to 
avoid frustration and misunderstandings, the additional necessity for a 
nomail-subscription should be brought to them.

Best regards

Bernhard
>


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail to discuss+help@documentfoundation.org
All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted.
List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/