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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?

Hello Mike,

Le Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:41:05 +0000,
Mike Hall <> a écrit :

On 16/12/2014 09:37, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
As such, we're crucially relying on feedback from our users (and
Charles pointed out the many ways to collect it) -- but just in the
aggregate. Collectively, our user base provides tremendous value to
us, by marketing to peers, reporting bugs, voting with their feet,
donating money etc. The individual user though -- on average --
contributes just tiny amounts. So the big picture looks pretty much
like Charles' tongue-in-cheek 'almost zero'.
I'm also late responding to what seemed originally to be a genuine 
attempt by Nino to seek ways of enhancing end user feedback.

I read Nino's words as being emphatically not about enhancing user
feedback... :-)

Although I agree the necessary mechanisms are in place, his input is 
evidence that it can be hard for users to appreciate this.

It can seem that developments and discussions are for the benefit of
the 'in' team and not for the majority who are not involved other
than as users. 

Pardon me but I am not a developer. I do not claim to understand code;
I do not claim to understand a third or half of what the Engineering
Steering Committee writes in its meeting minutes (but I understand the
other parts); we are many contributors in this situation. But we also
have users who simply do not accept that they are using something which
is not a product, and that they can "make" the software as much as
anybody else. The underlying idea here is that not only is LibreOffice
not a product, it is also not a project that works according to users
wishes if these are only wishes... see more comments inline.

Would a different attitude/culture, something like
"Users 1st", help to mitigate that?

Users do not dictate what developers do. That's not how Free and Open
Source Software works, as "the culture change" entails that users would
tell developers and contributors what to do. What would be the
incentive for anyone to do that? I have a day job. Many others do. Why
would I receive directives from random people? :-)

At the same time it would be good
to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their
choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a
case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help > Send
Feedback...    page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all
users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of
being users.

Users are users. They get rights from the software freedom conveyed by
the licenses we use. They do not get anything else, unless they want to
become contributors. Anything else is toxic for the community and
profoundly demotivational (btw: we have ten years of experience on that

To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension
to the    Help > Send Feedback...    page, also ideally putting that 
content into the main help file so users can see it without going

Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent 
summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version
if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is
always very difficult.
  Welcome to the LibreOffice Community

The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, 
whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved.

How about: "Everyone is welcome: see how you can become involved today!"
Otherwise  you keep on having this distinction where users are not
encouraged to become contributors.

As a user, you inevitably have responsibilities:
- enjoy the advantages of LO
- learn to use the LO effectively
- keep your version up-to-date
- make an occasional donation, however small, perhaps when you upgrade
- tell your friends about your experience

I like these lines above.

You are most welcome to become more involved:
[ followed by a reformatted version of the   Help > Send Feedback

How about bring the feedback link in the above list, and where you have:
"You are most welcome to become involved:"
put the link to:

Because that one is for everyone as well?

Next step, if you wish, is to bring this to our Design team (mailing
list, whiteboard, etc.)



[new 'Users 1st' logo]

You are missing all these links here

Charles-H. Schulz 
Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
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