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On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 05:06:51AM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
Le 2010-11-26 01:05, Robert Holtzman a écrit :

             ..........snip.........


Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
would be given with the initial reply.

Is that not what you wrote up above when I quoted you?

"One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that
makes you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a
modicum of research and try what's found before posting a question
to a list. Also, the post should include the standard information,
s/w version, OS, etc."

Your statement: "I believe it is asking too much from a new user to expect 
this knowledge prior to posting." sounded like you thought I expected a
first time poster to possess prior knowledge. My apologies if I got that
wrong.

             .........snip........


Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.

You may have earned some respect from the people who run the help
list but not from a new user or users who don't know you. Having
earned the respect of others also does not make you any more special
than anyone else. It's the impression that others have of you that
makes you special.

Knowing me individually has nothing to do with it. When you post a
question to a list you are requesting help from a volunteer who is
donating his/her time and knowledge without compensation. This in itself
is what is deserving of respect.

              ............snip..........


So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
patronising help list.

First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
suggested.

That passage was meant as what I consider a helpdesk's attitude.
Sorry if it sounds like it was aimed at you. It is meant as a
general statement.

OK, I got that now.



Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.


I don't think that your quoted comment (below) of how you feel would
set the stage for a good reception of a user who had not filled in
what you consider the requirements for a help request. But sure if I
misunderstood that passage, I am sorry.

"This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid
employees  or if the posters were paying for help. In that case

          .......short snip........

the respect of not having their time wasted trying to guess the
problem from incomplete questions."

I'm not sure why you would get that impression. It was pretty much a
statement of fact.



As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
turn their computer on.

Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
then they should not be on the help list.

You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
that last part backwards.

Sorry if I did and thanks for your comments.

What I meant (and should have made plain) is that I never said I was
frustrated or didn't like helping people. Also the use of the phrase
"serving people", no matter how grammatically correct in that context,
lights my fuse. I don't serve. I realize it was probably inadvertent. 
Lending a helping hand, to me, isn't serving. It's just the decent 
thing to do.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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