Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 05:06:51AM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
> Le 2010-11-26 01:05, Robert Holtzman a écrit :

             ..........snip.........

> > Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
> > information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
> > would be given with the initial reply.
>
> Is that not what you wrote up above when I quoted you?
>
> "One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that
> makes you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a
> modicum of research and try what's found before posting a question
> to a list. Also, the post should include the standard information,
> s/w version, OS, etc."

Your statement: "I believe it is asking too much from a new user to expect 
this knowledge prior to posting." sounded like you thought I expected a
first time poster to possess prior knowledge. My apologies if I got that
wrong.

             .........snip........

> > Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.
>
> You may have earned some respect from the people who run the help
> list but not from a new user or users who don't know you. Having
> earned the respect of others also does not make you any more special
> than anyone else. It's the impression that others have of you that
> makes you special.

Knowing me individually has nothing to do with it. When you post a
question to a list you are requesting help from a volunteer who is
donating his/her time and knowledge without compensation. This in itself
is what is deserving of respect.

              ............snip..........

> > > So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
> > > this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
> > > people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
> > > Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
> > > person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
> > > and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
> > > patronising help list.
> >
> > First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
> > suggested.
>
> That passage was meant as what I consider a helpdesk's attitude.
> Sorry if it sounds like it was aimed at you. It is meant as a
> general statement.

OK, I got that now.

> > Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
> > advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
> > >
>
> I don't think that your quoted comment (below) of how you feel would
> set the stage for a good reception of a user who had not filled in
> what you consider the requirements for a help request. But sure if I
> misunderstood that passage, I am sorry.
>
> "This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid
> employees  or if the posters were paying for help. In that case

          .......short snip........

> the respect of not having their time wasted trying to guess the
> problem from incomplete questions."

I'm not sure why you would get that impression. It was pretty much a
statement of fact.

> > > > As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> > > > mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> > > > lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> > > > lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> > > > turn their computer on.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
> > > service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
> > > need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
> > > then they should not be on the help list.
> >
> > You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
> > that last part backwards.
>
> Sorry if I did and thanks for your comments.

What I meant (and should have made plain) is that I never said I was
frustrated or didn't like helping people. Also the use of the phrase
"serving people", no matter how grammatically correct in that context,
lights my fuse. I don't serve. I realize it was probably inadvertent. 
Lending a helping hand, to me, isn't serving. It's just the decent 
thing to do.

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
 check the price of the beer"

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