[tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

Le 2010-11-26 01:05, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 09:47:05PM -0500, Marc Paré wrote:
> > Le 2010-11-25 18:54, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> >
> > > One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
> > > you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
> > > research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
> > > the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
> > > If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
> > > surprised you don't recommend this yourself.
> >
> > This usually happens as a normal course of discussion with people
> > who need help. The initial contact may not have enough information
> > and we usually as for more. This is pretty standard. I believe it is
> > asking too much from a new user to expect this knowledge prior to
> > posting. Otherwise, if we had that attitude, we would constantly be
> > berating these people and making them feel like our help list is not
> > really helpful.
>
> Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
> information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
> would be given with the initial reply.

Is that not what you wrote up above when I quoted you?

"One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that 
makes you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a 
modicum of research and try what's found before posting a question to a 
list. Also, the post should include the standard information, s/w 
version, OS, etc."

> > > This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
> > > or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
> > > users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
> > > one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
> > > contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
> > > motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
> > > wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions.
> >
> > How can you be altruistic and still feel like you are entitled to
> > respect from others? These seem like opposing concepts. If you are
> > altruistic, then you don't care if people do not give you your
> > "entitled" respect. You actually have to earn respect. People do not
> > owe you respect. Otherwise, IMO, this would not make you a good
> > candidate for a help list.
>
> Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.

You may have earned some respect from the people who run the help list 
but not from a new user or users who don't know you. Having earned the 
respect of others also does not make you any more special than anyone 
else. It's the impression that others have of you that makes you special.

> > > This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
> > > addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
> > > users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
> > > right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
> > > nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
> > > remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
> > > I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
> > > few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
> >
> > So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
> > this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
> > people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
> > Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
> > person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
> > and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
> > patronising help list.
>
> First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
> suggested.

That passage was meant as what I consider a helpdesk's attitude. Sorry 
if it sounds like it was aimed at you. It is meant as a general statement.

> Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
> advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
> >

I don't think that your quoted comment (below) of how you feel would set 
the stage for a good reception of a user who had not filled in what you 
consider the requirements for a help request. But sure if I 
misunderstood that passage, I am sorry.

"This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees 
 or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy 
 users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused 
because  one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, 
that the contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from 
altruistic motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having 
their time wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions."

> > > As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> > > mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> > > lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> > > lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> > > turn their computer on.
> >
> > Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
> > service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
> > need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
> > then they should not be on the help list.
>
> You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
> that last part backwards.

Sorry if I did and thanks for your comments.

Cheers

Marc



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