Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal

Hi Michel,

2010/10/15 Michel Gagnon <michel@mgagnon.net>

> Hello, I wonder what is the interest of Microsoft and others, including
> you, to replace menus with a ribbon-like interface.

I think it brings the worst in terms of usability. Why?We have grown to use
> a certain menu organization. File, Edit, Format, Tools, Windows and Help
> are, in that order, fairly standard menu items in all applications, and even
> the basic list of menu items is even fairly standardized. The ribbon
> interface changes that to a certain extent and requires a relearning
> process.There are a few menu items that are easily displayed with icons, but
> most icons are either very hard to read or require a lot of real estate or
> both. Look at Microsoft Word or at WordPad on System 7 and look at icons
> used for page or paragraph margins, or for search and replace (very similar
> to the one for spelling). Because of that, Ms Office 2010 and WordPad adds
> text below many icons (more real estate) and a tool tip which is basically
> the former menu item.Because of real estate requirements, there are a
> limited number of buttons that may be displayed on a screen, whether it is
> with a traditional set of buttonsla Office 3.2 or with a ribbonla Microsoft
> Office 2007-2010. So there is a need for multiple menus that call different
> ribbons like Ms Office. or buttons that need still another action like
> custom margins.Using a typical menu item requires one move with the mouse:
> move it to the top to select the menu and slide it toward the menu item,
> then release. Sub menus require a little more dexterity.On the other hand,
> using a typical ribbon "menu" item requires a move and two clicks: a first
> click at the top to select the proper ribbon, then a click on the proper
> icon. And because of the limited real estate, it is more likely that one
> then falls onto yet another dialogue box.A traditional tool bar is always
> there; so its commands may be accessed very quickly. But it works only
> because of its limited number of icons.So what would be the best approach?
> Probably a mix of both systems.A traditional menu system for structured
> commands. In a word processor, I see comprehensive commands like Page setup,
> Paragraph setup, Font setup, Style setup (with a dialog box like that of
> Office 2003), Table setup, etc. Simple commands like "Align to the left"
> could either be in a submenu or even forgotten altogether because they
> already are accessible through the Paragraph Setup dialog box. Displaying
> them in a submenu makes learning and training easier : the command is seen,
> its shortcut is seen, etc.If a ribbon-like approach is used, there should be
> shortcuts not only for items, but also for each of the ribbons. For
> instance, I should be able to press alt-F for the File ribbon, alt-E to show
> the Edit ribbon, etc... and each of these shortcuts should become as
> standard as control-Z, X, C and V for the basic cut and paste
> possibilities.

Of course, control-C for Cut and control-shift-L (or control-L) for
> Align-left should also exist for a direct access to menus.Icons are good
> when the graphic is obvious to all and when clicking on it has a direct
> result. One of the major pitfalls I currently see is that most are
> non-configurable (same problem with Microsoft Office and OpenOffice). So for
> me, the Left-Align and Bold icons work (but the keyboard shortcuts are so
> quicker), but the bullet icon doesn't work because it does not use my
> preferred settings: I would like it to apply my "Bullet 1" setting (usually
> a hanging indent of 1 pica with no further indent, but some documents have a
> different style definition). Ditto for the 5 or 6 different Page Setting
> icons that are defined in Ms Word 2007: none of them have the margins I need
> for my documents!How would a mixed system work?One way to do it would be to
> have the menus first, followed by ribbons. For instance, the new LibreOffice
> would have File-Edit-Display (maybe)-Insert-Format-Table-Tools-Window menus,
> then Basic (file and edit ribbon items)-Insert-Format (document, paragraph
> and text items)-Table ribbons. The menu could appear either on a single line
> or on two lines if/when the window is too narrow.Finally, should a ribbon
> sit on the right or at the top? Why not have it either way? The ribbon is a
> glorified toolbar and traditional toolbars have worked in either position,
> either docked or undocked. So why not have the "ribbon menus" call a toolbar
> anyway?By the way, since we talk of a new interface, one aspect I don't like
> of OpenOffice 3.x are the toolbars that appear and disappear according to
> paragraph styles. For instance, when bullets are chosen (or a bullet style),
> the bullet toolbar appears (by default at the top) and shifts all text down
> 1 cm. Go back to a standard paragraph and it shifts up again. Why not have a
> user interface made with one or two user-defined toolbars like we currently
> have on OpenOffice 3.x and Ms Office 2003, plus one toolbar that would be
> always there, albeit with variable content (a.k.a. the "ribbon"). Users
> would decide where they want that big grey box and LibreOffice would fill in
> the proper icons.

That gives me a lot to respond to -- I'll try to be as concise as possible.
a) Why the change in menu categorization? Because the old one wasn't good
enough. "File" contained tools that applied to both the currently-opened
file and to the office suite as a whole. "Edit" and "Tools" menus held
miscellaneous commands. There were commands under "Table" that weren't
specific to tables. It was a mess. But if anyone wants to revert back to the
classic UI, there definitely should be an option to do so.
b) I agree -- the Ribbon UI is less than ideal.
c) The interface definitely should be as flexible as possible.
d) Please read http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/the-citrus-menu/ :
I think it might answer some of your concerns.

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