[steering-discuss] funding for system operations meeting

Hi :slight_smile:
I think the SC just voted on the 600 euroes excess. I think the full amount
might need another vote. Coincidentally i think there is an Sc Meeting
tonight(?) so it could be done quite quickly there? Perhaps vote on the full
amount first and if that gets defeated then vote on the excess?

I think there also needs to be some thought about Base. Should it be dropped
from LO since it's not getting any attention? If TDF wants to keep Base is it
prepared to recruit an employee as a dev or legal expert or team-leader (or a
bit of all those) to properly build a good team to deal with the vast amount of
complex issues that Base is suffering from? I think the money is there and
should be used. I think Some supporters such as RedHat, Cannonical and Google
might be willing to help but i think TDF needs to drive it.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi,

I don't disagree that, based on the agenda and participants, it would
make more sens, but then why didn't you put the initial budget
proposal in front of the TDF SC rather than the 'German Association'
board ?

the initial funding was an offer by the German association, like we fund many other events in Germany, so there was initially no need to discuss it with the SC. However, after seeing that we need more money, and thinking about it again, I thought it made more sense to take all money from the TDF account, out of the reasons outlined.

(anyway, my quibbling was triggered by the notion that one should
translate German minutes of another association to be informed on what
is going on at TDF :slight_smile: )

No. :slight_smile: The problem is that FrODeV and TDF are legally the same entity, but both have their own topics on the agenda, which makes things a bit complicated until TDF is an own entity. :slight_smile:

Florian

Hi,

I think the SC just voted on the 600 euroes excess. I think the full amount
might need another vote. Coincidentally i think there is an Sc Meeting
tonight(?) so it could be done quite quickly there? Perhaps vote on the full
amount first and if that gets defeated then vote on the excess?

so, I state the vote once again:

I'd like to ask the SC for a full funding of the occured 1,600 € from the TDF bank account, as I think it makes more sense to use TDF funds for a TDF related event.

In case the German association really wants to pay from the association's bank account, I would only pay the excess of 600 € from the TDF account, otherwise the full amount.

Thoughts?

I think there also needs to be some thought about Base. Should it be dropped
from LO since it's not getting any attention? If TDF wants to keep Base is it
prepared to recruit an employee as a dev or legal expert or team-leader (or a
bit of all those) to properly build a good team to deal with the vast amount of
complex issues that Base is suffering from? I think the money is there and
should be used. I think Some supporters such as RedHat, Cannonical and Google
might be willing to help but i think TDF needs to drive it.

Please post this as a new thread, as otherwise people will simply overlook it.

Florian

Hi,

I've no particular opinion about the funding, but I did regret having
missed the opportunity to have met the project's sysadmins, and I was
disappointed that it was a thing not decided with the knowledge and
possible involvement of the international community of web resource
contributors, but with only discussion between German members.

While I recognize that there are many German sysadmins in the project,
I do hope that it's not going to become a habit that things be
organized purely between them, because there are actually other people
working on webby things. Please do remember the spirit and intentions
of the Community Bylaws.

Hi David,

I've no particular opinion about the funding, but I did regret having
missed the opportunity to have met the project's sysadmins, and I was
disappointed that it was a thing not decided with the knowledge and
possible involvement of the international community of web resource
contributors, but with only discussion between German members.

While I recognize that there are many German sysadmins in the project,
I do hope that it's not going to become a habit that things be
organized purely between them, because there are actually other people
working on webby things. Please do remember the spirit and intentions
of the Community Bylaws.

of course, we do, but that meeting was a nonpublic one on purpose.

We really wanted to get a lot of work done concerning the admins, and we were busy all weekend long. Anyone outside of the admin group would have had a boring time. There was simply no time for "meet and greet", as harsh as it sounds. It was solely for those having root access, not for web site managers, as the technical topics were in-depth and detailed.

We definitely plan to have open meetings, but this meeting was really necessary to make the sysadmins work together, so it was reserved for this group.

Hope you understand what I mean and it doesn't sound too harsh. :slight_smile:

Florian

hey florian im just curious how does one get to be a system admin? Is it limited to those people in germany or can people such as myself based in malta help out as a systems admin as well?

Hi Florian,

It was solely for those having root access, not for web site managers, as
the technical topics were in-depth and detailed.

Yes, well given that you have root access to my server, it would have
been good for me to talk to you about some "in-depth and detailed"
issues.

We definitely plan to have open meetings, but this meeting was really
necessary to make the sysadmins work together, so it was reserved for this
group.

"Work together"? And with the outside world, too, I hope! I posted a
request/proposition to the admins on the website ML a week ago and
still did not get even an answer. I notice sometimes that getting some
attention and cooperation from the libreoffice.org admins is like
trying to get blood out of a stone (and I'm not just talking about my
own posts, others seem to get the same mileage sometimes). So I hope
you at least talked about that kind of in-depth issue too. :wink:

Precisely the problem seems to be that the sysadmins are a closed
group, unlike other teams in the project, and simply don't seem to
work in the same way as other teams. They might be managing key
infrastructure but it's not a reason for working differently - in fact
quite the opposite, they should be especially attentive to working
openly.... it's not a good tendence, IMO.

Hi,

hey florian im just curious how does one get to be a system admin? Is it
limited to those people in germany or can people such as myself based in
malta help out as a systems admin as well?

there is no defined process so far, and basically, of course, everyone is welcome from any country - the fact that it's just Germans is a pure coincidence.

However, at the moment, we have a group of 10 people, and I am a bit hesitant of adding more people to this core group. The core group has full root access to all our systems, and it should be kept rather small. This does not mean, of course, that we do not need help in maintaining individual services like website & co.

Florian

Me im not so much into web design and coding, me im more of a technical server side guy.

Hi David,

Yes, well given that you have root access to my server, it would have
been good for me to talk to you about some "in-depth and detailed"
issues.

well, in that case, I indeed missed it, and I am sorry for that. However, publically announcing it would have defeated its purpose. We wanted only the core group together, to effectively work. Having visitors or interested parties around would not only have make things more complicated, but also from a security point of view, the information simply was not for the public.

Indeed, since you manage one of our external services, inviting you would have made sense - again, sorry for overlooking that, that was not on purpose.

"Work together"? And with the outside world, too, I hope! I posted a
request/proposition to the admins on the website ML a week ago and
still did not get even an answer. I notice sometimes that getting some
attention and cooperation from the libreoffice.org admins is like
trying to get blood out of a stone (and I'm not just talking about my
own posts, others seem to get the same mileage sometimes). So I hope
you at least talked about that kind of in-depth issue too. :wink:

Well - if anyone is interested in hiring a few folks for a 24x7 infrastructure service, feel free and then complain if it doesn't work. Otherwise, I beg some understanding, that we are all busy as hell and try our best to make things happen, and that we do a real good job. Of course, not all is well, but I think the fact that everything works like a charm speaks for itself.

What was your request about?

Precisely the problem seems to be that the sysadmins are a closed
group, unlike other teams in the project, and simply don't seem to
work in the same way as other teams. They might be managing key
infrastructure but it's not a reason for working differently - in fact
quite the opposite, they should be especially attentive to working
openly.... it's not a good tendence, IMO.

We're not a closed group at all. Many of us are lurking on the website and/or moderators mailing list, and jump in. Like Erich and Christian with setting up new websites, Christian investigating mail issues and the like.

What we indeed plan is to introduce the admin team to the public, showing the names and faces behind it, and ways to contact us to be more transparent.

You know, complaining is easy. I myself do nearly a half-day job for TDF, next to my real life, and I'm a bit allergic to generalization. If there is a specific topic that does not work out, please ping us again and let us know. But saying in general, we are totally closed and nothing works is a bit unfair, David. You know better that it isn't that bad.

Florian

Hey guys im just thinking here.

Does the TDF have an offsite server that hosts the website in case the main server needs to go down for maintenance?

Hi,

Does the TDF have an offsite server that hosts the website in case the
main server needs to go down for maintenance?

can you please redirect that question to the website list? steering-discuss is the wrong place for it :slight_smile:

Florian

Hi Jonathan,

hey florian im just curious how does one get to be a system admin? Is it
limited to those people in germany or can people such as myself based in
malta help out as a systems admin as well?

  I would like to see you meet some / any of the commitments you've made
in the development arena before giving any access to critical
infrastructure.

  HTH,

    Michael.

My apologies.

Hi Florian,

You know, complaining is easy. I myself do nearly a half-day job for TDF,
next to my real life, and I'm a bit allergic to generalization. If there is
a specific topic that does not work out, please ping us again and let us
know. But saying in general, we are totally closed and nothing works is a
bit unfair, David. You know better that it isn't that bad.

I know you work tremendously hard for the project, and you have a lot
of respect and gratitude from me from that, which you know I have
expressed on- and off-list various times. Let me take the chance to
say again that, without your *personal* efforts, this project would
probably fall apart. Literally.

No, this is in no way directed towards you personally. Nor do I ever
say that "everything is bad". But that doesn't mean that one should
not point out undesirable tendencies (in a measured and rational
manner) before they get to be ingrained habits.

And I do understand that, in a FOSS project, we always have to take
account of people's time limitations. However, when one is managing
the project's key infrastructure as a rather closed group, one does
have a bit of a commitment to especial responsiveness, within
reasonable limits. In any case, it's certainly what I try to apply
with my own piece of infrastructure.

My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the
right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it
would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not
see things like that, but...

For the particular questions I could have raised, I'll mail you
off-list. In which case, I perfectly accept that it will take you time
to consider and respond, because I know you have a lot on your plate.
Once again, you definitely should not read all the above posts as any
kind of criticism of you personally. You should probably be aware by
now that I hold your work for the project in very high regard.

Hi :slight_smile:
I think TDF have a lot more than just 1 server but presumably would always
appreciate another mirror. As Florian says, the website mailing list would have
far more info about all that.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Emailed them no response

Hi :slight_smile:
I think TDF have a lot more than just 1 server but presumably would always

appreciate another mirror. As Florian says, the website mailing list would

have

far more info about all that.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

________________________________
From: Jonathan Aquilina <eagles051387@gmail.com>
To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Mon, 1 August, 2011 9:59:12
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] offsite website backup

Hi,

Does the TDF have an offsite server that hosts the website in case the
main server needs to go down for maintenance?

can you please redirect that question to the website list?
steering-discuss is the wrong place for it :slight_smile:

Florian

My apologies.

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Hi :slight_smile:
Some lists are more active than others and may also have been distracted by some
other topic. Also a lot of people are in America. Wait a day or so and see how
it goes.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi David,

I know you work tremendously hard for the project, and you have a lot
of respect and gratitude from me from that, which you know I have
expressed on- and off-list various times. Let me take the chance to
say again that, without your *personal* efforts, this project would
probably fall apart. Literally.

thanks for those kind words, they are really appreciated. I think it's a great team effort, and everyone contributes a lot to make happen what happens. It's not only the spokespeople or the SC, but everyone from the community is doing just amazing and magical things here that really impress me every day!

No, this is in no way directed towards you personally. Nor do I ever
say that "everything is bad". But that doesn't mean that one should
not point out undesirable tendencies (in a measured and rational
manner) before they get to be ingrained habits.

Of course, any constructive criticism is highly appreciated. It would be a lie if I said that you are not getting blind over time, when you are heavily involved in such a project - so feedback from others is indeed very helpful.

And I do understand that, in a FOSS project, we always have to take
account of people's time limitations. However, when one is managing
the project's key infrastructure as a rather closed group, one does
have a bit of a commitment to especial responsiveness, within
reasonable limits. In any case, it's certainly what I try to apply
with my own piece of infrastructure.

My point is that the sysadmins team is perhaps not developing the
right culture in terms of openness and participation, and that it
would be good to open it up a bit. This is my 2 cents, others may not
see things like that, but...

I only agree partially. I think the sysadmin team is a very special case for any project. The core group has full root access to all servers, so it requires a lot of knowledge, trust and and working together. I consider it highly important that everyone knows the others from face to face meetings, and that the core group is not too large, out of organizational and security considerations, but also out of liability issues.

This does not mean, of course, that this core group has to do all the tasks. We can have SilverStripe and wiki admins, mailing list moderators and other people working on the infrastructure, but not everyone needs to be a part of the core group. In other words: A wiki admin does not need root SSH access to our machines.

What I agree to is that the work of the infrastructure team is not transparent enough at the moment, and we indeed are working on that. We plan to have some more information on the team and its work publically soon, that's something we agreed during that meeting.

However, in some terms, the core group will always be a bit more closed than the rest of the project, because it needs to out of security considerations and the special framework they work in. We just cannot give everyone insight into our systems, that's just too much of a risk.

For that particular meeting, we indeed did not want to have it open. We wanted to have that core group together. We had lots of things to work on and discuss, also lots of security-relevant stuff, and there simply was no time for a "meet and greet the admins".

Talking about you especially, with hosting one of the machines that we are using, indeed I missed to tell you about that meeting. But if I remembered to do so, this would not have been done in public anyways, because that meeting was not meant to be public.

Hope that makes some things a bit clearer. :slight_smile:

For the particular questions I could have raised, I'll mail you
off-list. In which case, I perfectly accept that it will take you time
to consider and respond, because I know you have a lot on your plate.

Sure, just drop me a mail and we'll see. You can also mail all the admins at hostmaster@documentfoundation.org if the mail is intended for all of them.

We indeed plan to make some senseful contact mechanism available for the admin team, e.g. we're currently investigating BugZilla and OTRS for that.

However, sometimes things will simply take their time, as we are all just a group of volunteers doing things in their spare time.

Once again, you definitely should not read all the above posts as any
kind of criticism of you personally. You should probably be aware by
now that I hold your work for the project in very high regard.

Thanks a lot!

Florian

What is this then?
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05664.html

a reply withing 20 minutes of your post. Please don't call this "no response".

You surely won't get any bonus or credibility points for that...

ciao
Christian