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Re: [steering-discuss] Re: Apache Incubator Proposal: Splitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HREUNITING the Community?

----- Original Message ----
From: Norbert Thiebaud <>
Sent: Sat, 4 June, 2011 14:03:55
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: Apache Incubator Proposal: 
Splitting^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HREUNITING the Community?

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 6:36 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<>  wrote:
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Florian Effenberger
 <>  wrote:
Hi Robert,

Hi Florian

 (Copying in Charles since he asked a similar question off  list)

I'm still reading a few messages and trying to reply  to them, but wanted 
join in here:

Just like the  rest of us :-)

Noisy and open - everyone with an opinion is  welcome :-)

Robert Burrell Donkin wrote on 2011-06-04  09.14:

The TDF is in no position to accept a  major donation of either
copyright or code today. Apache  is.


AIUI [1] the TDF is not a legal  entity today and is still in the
process of building it's legal,  organisational and process

So it was urgent as in  a matter of weeks ?

I accept it has strong legal backing but today  no
(related) US non-profit corporation exists which could accept  the

How is 'US' relevant here ?

The  Apache Software Foundation provides a suitable legal no-profit
 organisation and in place today a suitable process to accept large
 donations of code from major organisations safely through the
Incubator.  It has considerable experience of opening close source
projects and in  working with rich downstream ecologies.

Opening close source ? how is it  relevant here ?
The proposal is to relicense an open-source project... unless  I missed
something the proposal concern not Symphony right  ?

Can you elaborate?

IMHO LibreOffice  community finds itself in a similar position to the
Apache group in the  mid-90s. Great community. Fantastic momentum. Cool

But establishing code provenance and the Apache  Software Foundation
(ASF) took a(n unexpectedly) large amount of time  and energy.
Establishing suitable licenses and agreements took time and  energy
over several iterations. Establishing a sound Incubation process  took
time and energy over many iterations. It took time for us to learn  and
evolve secure processes which don't completely suck.

That is  all good, but irrelevant. we already have a license and we
would not need to  incubate anything: the code base you
are trying to digest is our daily  chore... It has already graduated as
a top level project
even better as  THE top level project.

The TDF is at the start of a journey  that the ASF started a decade ago
and is yet to reach the end.
As far  as is concerned, it is the other way around.

The TDF may  wish to consider whether an
alternative path might achieve their aims  faster...
Well, take a look:
I'm pretty sure that  we've got nice head start...


Hi :)

Yes, i think most people (lurkers) here only speak for themselves, not as 
representatives of TDF, except perhaps the founder members.  

The timing of this was surely chosen by Oracle rather than TDF or Apache?  I'm 
paranoid enough to think that Oracle deliberate chose this approximate timing 
months ago, perhaps before September.  That same paranoia leads me to suspect 
that Oracle chose Apache to give Apache a 'mill-stone', something to sink time & 
resources into without getting anything positive back, hence distracting Apache 
from any on-going fights with Oracle.  

Luckily, i think, they have chosen the 'wrong' people and the 'wrong' product.  
Despite the efforts of Oracle since September and before OpenOffice is still a 
good product with a good reputation and Apache are exactly the sort of people 
most likely to be able to recover that position fast and develop from there 
while doing so.  

Also i think Oracle seriously underestimated how Apache are more likely to work 
well with TDF, perhaps in co-operative competition or perhaps joining TDF and 
resourcing a percentage of development here.  At the very worst it's to keep 
both products in the news which gives us both a level of free marketing.  
Perhaps we should work at appearing to compete more than we really do while 
splitting development costs between each other by sharing fixes and updates etc?

Regards from
Tom :)

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