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Hello David, 

Le Fri, 7 Jan 2011 17:07:31 +0800,
David Nelson <> a écrit :

Hi Michael, :-)

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 05:36, Michael Meeks
<> wrote:
a clear decision about the management of the
website. It's an important tool for marketing. I have plenty of
ideas about how to market with it

       Here is my clear idea: since you are doing the work - you
get to own it, lead it, and those that don't like what you do get
to gripe at you, and everyone else gets to back you up :-) [ if
only to keep you motivated, happy and productive ;-].

I get the idea, but I'm not sure if it is really viable as a form of
management. For instance, me, I want to do *work* for the project. But
I don't want to spend more time writing to lists arguing with people,
etc, than actually doing useful work.

My experience to date has been 90% debating by e-mail and 10% actual

And I certainly didn't feel too much back up until the last few

I'm sorry to hear this, but I thought it was clear you were backed
up... what did we miss?

So I probably won't be tempted to carry on the work past my original
goal of seeing the LibreOffice community with a website.

At the moment, spending more time with my guitar sounds more
inviting! ;-)

Well guitar can be inviting , yet I would be extremely sorry to see you
go David. Your contributions are indeed precious. Mind reconsidering
your position? 

and I would like to get a clear remit to work on that with you.
Please can you read my post [1] on the SC list and contribute your
thoughts on it?

       I read it - it had about five new formal roles in it - so I
didn't like it. I'd much prefer that you were the leader by dint of
actually doing all the hard work (like you are now) :-)

I do see what you mean, but working on the website for the project has
not been a good experience so far... A whole lot of criticism, very
little useful support, very little practical help from anyone...

(personally) I am not a big believer in lots of formal access
control - but in social pressure and consensus building:
you created some nice
content - how can we help you stop other people mangling it ?

I don't really know, Michael... You tell me? :-D

Well perhaps it might be time to give you some clear title? :-)

If you allow the site to be run in a chaotic, uncontrolled manner,
I think you'll lose a lot of the benefit it could otherwise bring
the foundation.

       True, so I wonder how we can help coax people into producing
and editing in a tasteful and restrained way ? how can we build
good taste, and/or asking-when-they-don't-know-the-answer into the
community of editors ?

Well, again, this is apparently the SC's "laisse-faire" / anarchical
style of community governance... or non-governance... so you tell me
the answers to those questions... ;-)

It's a system that might work when you're dealing with just people of
goodwill and good intent... but we all know that there are always some
people with negative behaviors and attitudes... How is one supposed to
cope with them?

There are never only people with good will. There are only an alignment
of interests. But you are also quite right that sometimes these
interests cannot be aligned. We might have been somewhat naive on this
and we do need, I feel, much more management work on the lists. 

In practice, this anarchical "management style" did not build you a
website. When left to organize the work by themselves, the "website
team" did not build you any kind of website at all.

It took nearly 3 months before LibreOffice got a website. And that was
due, in large part, to the bloody-minded obstinacy of one person.

My humble 2 cents is that the SC's social experiment has proved a

I don't think we wanted to do any social experiment. I think there was
a mixture of lack of management and the reality of people arriving and
not being educated in the way such a project works. 

And if you count on the same methods for the future management of your
website, I think you'll reap either more failure or - at best - a
mediocre result.

I think these are going to change. 

I think I'd like to start a larger debate about where TDF is going
when i finished the work on the website and hand it back to you to
manage however you feel best. ;-)

More email threads? :p

       Does that help ? :-)

Well, it gives me an idea of you guys' position... Thanks for that...
But so far it doesn't actually help as such, no... :-D

In any case, thanks for your input. ;-)

David I think you may have misunderstood Michael's message. I think he
means that you get the keys of the website project and work with
Christian, the design team, etc. pretty much get the job done. And I
believe I would second that. So what do you think?


David Nelson

Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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