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Hi Greg, all,

thank you very much for coming here!

Your efforts in working on a community united and collaborating as much as possible are really appreciated!

Greg Stein schrieb:
Hi all,

I imagine you've all heard about the proposal[1] to contribute OO.o to
the Apache Software Foundation. I've been involved with Apache for
well over a decade, on its Board of Directors since 2001, its current
Vice Chairman, the VP of Apache Subversion, and was the Chairman for
five years. In short: lots of Apache experience.

Short introduction from my side: For about 6 or 7 years active member of the OOo community, spent quite an amount of time in helping to avoid a split in the germanophone OOo project back in 2004 (?), became central contributor and coordinator in OOo Art and Branding Project and now here at LibreOffice from Sept. 2010.

I've been following and participating in the discussion around the
OO.o proposal on the list[1]. One of the
threads of that discussion was to reach out to the people in the
Document Foundation and the LibreOffice communities. So... that's this
email. I'm now subscribed to discuss@df, steering-discuss@df, and

I think this list here is the best for discussions about the community,
steering-discuss for contacting the Steering Committee members and libO@freedesktop for developers.

I intend to lurk regarding all the regular work that you all are doing
here. I'll be paying particular attention to any conversations or
concerns that you may have about the OOo/Apache stuff, and will
attempt to answer questions that you may have. I'm catching up on the
archives now.

That's what I tried with the general@incubator list - quite challenging at this time ;-)

I already wanted subscribe to it and post my question there, but perhaps (due to the emotional style of discussion over there at the moment) it is better to ask you here:

In his mail Sam Ruby points out, that an incubator proposal has to be discussed in the community before presenting it to Apache.

He cites the guidelines for proposals:

"The incoming community needs to work together before presenting this
proposal to the incubator. Think about and discuss future goals and
the reasons for coming to Apache."

If this would have been handled in a proper way, Oracle would have discussed this step with the community *before*.

This would have reduced the traffic at the Apache list to a minimum - leaving out bad blood and lot of noise...

As you probably know, defining the community has been easy until last September, but now there are two different definitions, depending on whom you ask:

While the people working here on LibreOffice understand themselves and the left-over as two projects within one community, some people on the OOo lists deny the positive feelings towards by the people who decided to create a single-sponsor independent foundation 8 months ago. In their eyes the LibO-supporter lost their right to support and feel as OOo community member with their support of LibreOffice.

This background is important to know, if you want to understand, what is going on at the Apache list.

But not even the remnant OOo project (that lacks an active governing body since all Community Council members not being payed by Oracle have been forced to leave when they announced their dedication to an independent foundation and all present seats should have been re-elected for a long time) has been involved in discussion before Oracle donated the trademark to Apache and IBM (via Rob Weir) proposed the incubator project to Apache.

My question is: Wouldn't it be reasonable to have a discussion - and a positive voting for Apache - inside the (smaller or broader) community *before* reaching out for Apache?

If I understand it right, Apache projects are community projects - not sponsor based projects (even if they have bought the communities trademarks from entities who held them once as legal representatives for the community)?

If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, then please feel
free to direct them my way (on whatever list). I'm here to listen and
understand, and to offer up answers where I can.

There are some other points I'd like to mention - like copy-left dedication of the mainly volunteer community who dislike any company increasing their profits by using these volunteers hard work (and lot of time) without giving back anything (not even respect) - but this would lead too far in this single mail.


Welcome here again, Greg!

Best regards


[2] send mail to if you would
like to subscribe and directly talk about the proposal

I don't know if the most productive outcome of my thought and our discussion would be here or on the Apache list. What do you think: Should I subscribe and re-post my mail there? Or is is better (and more peaceful, thus leading to a better signal/noise relation) to stay here and have you as moderator to take the message to the Apache list?

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