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Re: [board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.



Op 21-7-2020 om 00:36 schreef Bjoern Michaelsen:
Hi,

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 11:04:08AM +0000, toki wrote:
It might be useful to create a White Paper on migration to LibO
specifically for each size/class of potential user:

Either the same, or a different White Paper could go into the virtues
and vices of ongoing paid support, for each business size/class.
Maybe. OTOH, adoption without contribution is of no benefit to the project and
as such the foundation should take a very close look if a bigger investment in
an area really will yield contributions.
There is no might about those items.
"might" might have been a bit of hyperbole, but only slightly: Im not aware of
anyone trying to do a migration with 10 core developers and no trainers. On the
other hand there have been way too many migration attempts with 10 trainers and
no dev support (either from an ecosystem company or inhouse). All of those have
hurt LibreOffice ultimately and were inresponsible by those involved with them.

One of the more frequent criticisms of LibreOffice, is that it does not
include an email client/communication centre.
You call it the "one of the most frequent criticism of LibreoOffice", but its
really one of the most fundamental misunderstandings about LibreOffice.
LibreOffice is not a product -- its a project. As such it would have to be
considered a tradegy, if there was possible set of contributors -- individual
or institutional -- that the project could tap into, but failed to. For better
or worse, that is not what happened wrt email.

From the perspective of (a) delivering a complete Office Suite, (b) servicing user needs, (c) to have a competing product offer it still makes sense to have an open source e-mail client; IMHO

Unpaid e-mail clients for Windows become scarce. Open source even more. Maybe everybody moved to webmail? Currently using Thunderbird; but can't say it's exceptional user friendly/easy to use.
For individual users there is not much left, since Microsoft Live Mail discontinued (at the individual market).  You end up at freemium (eM Client/ Mailbird/ Postbox). Also found Zimbra; however requires Java runtime.

So if you focus on servicing needs, there is room for an e-mail client. Similar thing might be the case of the SMB and Enterprise market. Not sure what's on offer in that area except Outlook.

Don't think that LibreOffice should build their own client; however bundling/promoting/ teaming/ partnership up with some open source e-mail client could be an option to expand the suite and service they needs.  Certainly at Windows (and maybe at MacOS) front. Linux of course is shipped with Evolution/Kontact.

It could be:
* Evolution -> Tor Lillqvist did do a port in the past: https://sourceforge.net/projects/shellter/files/Evolution/
* Kontact -> QT apps are rather easy to port in general. Or phrase it differently - as I'm not a developer - I have seen a number of QT based apps on Windows.  So I assume this can be done. There is currently nothing; except get involved request from the Developers
* Mailspring -> https://getmailspring.com The front-end is open source; the mail engine closed source with the intention to be open source.  No calendar.
* Thunderbird (but should be shipped with calendar etc. Personally still  having issues with search; not liking way threads are managed and still not into the tabs). It's a bit of a lost child at Mozilla?

The benefit for all of those projects is more attention if bundled with LibreOffice. And from user perspective LibreOffice becomes more 'feature' complete.  So win-win The downside is that look en feel maybe different from the rest of the LibreOffice suite.

Major problems:
* resource
* coordination
* different interest

About "LibreOffice is not a product -- its a project"
Interesting insight. Even it though it might be little ambiguous. I'm working a on a project for company X. For the developers involved LibreOffice is a project. For volunteers its a project. At the point you're monetize LibreOffice (or a fork) it become a product. The product might be the software itself of the services around it (or both). It's a commercial project, so to say. And from perspective of all the free users is primarily a product as long you're not involved. This is why I keep asking of business case/marketing plan. These are competing factors. It are communicating vessels. If you focus more on the commercial part, it becomes a more a product and less a project. So if you see it as a project it touches the core of LibreOffice (evil). So all the dynamics might change.

However a project without (active) developers is not much of project either. And the reality is the project is driven by a few core company's. And some volunteers. 23,05% is done by some volunteers; if but you zoom in. Its probably less. Lots of lines are (svg) images so lots of 'code' without much of a change. Nothing against the importance of design. But actually even more code is coming from the company's. Some sometimes I see LibreOffice as a company Enterprise (at least a code level); not talking about documentation/translation/ask/marketing/infra

So it's a project of company's; being open for people who want to contribute (for free) with community events and such. And the company's a doing this currently still for free; but question how sustainable this model is.


As a project, LibreOffice has to invest in areas where there is an opportunity
for growth on _both_ sides of the project: need for a feature by users AND
interest in contribution by contributors. Only then there can be a virtous
circle of growth on both sides: contributions and adaption.

Areas where there might be adoption, but little to no contribution are not
sustainable and will become a burden to the project faster than a blink of an
eye. At best, these areas are ignored by the project -- and there is absolutely
no shame in that at all.

LibreOffice is growing in number of users (based on the stats), the community isn't getting much bigger. Or looks shrinking to me. Developer count down. (Can be get a better paid job elsewhere? Code to hard to read. All moved to b e app developer?). QA volunteers down; old regulars show up less. So even this a problems. Maybe linguistic issue (English). So core user base living in country's where this less common to speak?
Best,

Bjoern
Regards,
Telesto


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References:
[board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.Peter Dolding <oiaohm@gmail.com>
Re: [board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.Michael Meeks <michael.meeks@collabora.com>
Re: [board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.Thorsten Behrens <thb@documentfoundation.org>
Re: [board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.Bjoern Michaelsen <bjoern.michaelsen@libreoffice.org>
Re: [board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.toki <toki.kantoor@gmail.com>
Re: [board-discuss] Personal Edition label and define is wrong.Bjoern Michaelsen <bjoern.michaelsen@libreoffice.org>
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