[steering-discuss] connecting external services to our domain

Hi, :slight_smile:

My request for the alfresco.libreoffice.org sub-domain still holds.

I am willing to offer Christian/Florian full root access to the
system, if necessary, and to comply with all feasible requirements to
satisfy TDF.

Would it be appropriate to request consideration of this at the next SC meeting?

Or is the refusal firm and non-negotiable?

David Nelson

Hi,

please be fair. Florian explained the reason, why he don't want to connect external
services to LO. This has nothing to do with the new ODFAuthors site.

sorry for the delay, David - not on purpose, and has nothing to do with ODFAuthors. Was just on vacation until 10th, then instantly got ill, so am still behind my Inbox. Sorry if you get the wrong impression... :slight_smile:

Will try to follow-up soon.

Florian

Hi David,

My request for the alfresco.libreoffice.org sub-domain still holds.

I am willing to offer Christian/Florian full root access to the
system, if necessary, and to comply with all feasible requirements to
satisfy TDF.

Would it be appropriate to request consideration of this at the next SC meeting?

Or is the refusal firm and non-negotiable?

no, there's no refusal in general, don't worry. :slight_smile: I'm just looking on how we can keep the infrastructure constant. We've just reached a rather stable and security state, and I would like to keep what we have achieved. For sure, we will have to look for external offers and options, I do not want to have everything in control, neither do I have the time for that. It's just that we didn't come up with policies for that yet. :slight_smile:

So, don't take this as a refusal, but just a question for the ease of use: Would theoretically hosting Alfresco on one of our servers also be an option to consider, or do you see huge advantages of having it on yours?

And, as a side question: Is there anyone who actually uses Alfresco? I didn't follow the documentation list closely, but I want avoid the same "what tool do we need" discussion we have for the website. So, have the requirements and the possible tools already been discussed or is this basically a one man show?

Sorry for the direct questions, but I guess you know what I mean. I just want to avoid a group of people working on a tool they like, when there are issues with actually using it right now...

Thanks for your work!
Florian

Hi Davi, *

Von: Florian Effenberger <floeff@documentfoundation.org>

> My request for the alfresco.libreoffice.org sub-domain still holds.
>
> I am willing to offer Christian/Florian full root access to the
> system, if necessary, and to comply with all feasible requirements to
> satisfy TDF.
>
> Would it be appropriate to request consideration of this at the next SC
meeting?
>
> Or is the refusal firm and non-negotiable?

no, there's no refusal in general, don't worry. :slight_smile: I'm just looking on
how we can keep the infrastructure constant.

I agree with Florian here, but another thought:
Can you give some reason for having alfresco? E.g. which team will use
the tool for what purpose. A brief summary or just a link to such a
summary would be helpfull (and sorry, If this is already available
and I missed it :frowning: ).

regards,

André

Hi Florian, :slight_smile:

All the active members of the docs team have accounts on the Alfresco
site I'm hosting right now. There is a general consensus/willingness
to use it, and people have already started trying it out for actual
work.

Putting it under a TDF sub-domain will only further strengthen
people's commitment to uptake.

We're ready to start a pilot work project, using the workflow that has
been developed. We have a system set up with:

- a custom-designed workflow for the docs team, developed by a
professional Alfresco developer and a member of the docs team,
- full git-like versioning,
- rollback,
- discussion around documents,
- full built-in support for ODF/OOo/LibreOffice file formats,
- simple usage (publication/updating) for users via the use of an
existing plugin for OOo/LibO that lets you collaborate right from
within the LibO applications,
- sophisticated searching capability, that can extend right into
hosted documents.

Basically, we have all the sophisticated functionality we need for
properly-managed, automation-assisted documentation development and
prepping for publication, with the potential ability to interface with
a variety of outside systems, such as directly with the LibreOffice
code repository...

It would be a great tool for producing developer documentation in the
future, in addition to the user documentation the docs team is now
working on.

It could also be used for easy management of HTML content on TDF
servers (documentfoundation.org, for instance), and for a variety of
other purposes.

Using Alfresco, we will be able to develop all our documentation and
many other kinds of content in-house, and we will acquire expertise
and autonomy within the LibreOffice project and docs team.

The advantages of hosting it on my server would be as follows:

1) It's quite a complicated package to set-up and configure. It is
quite memory-hungry. On my server, it is already fully operational. No
workload or worry for you. Version upgrades will be done whenever I
want, without putting workload and responsibility on you.

2) On my server, it is running within an environment that is simple to
manage. No problems of conflicts with the many other software products
that TDF runs. You get none of the complications that would inevitably
exist with integrating Alfresco into a TDF server.

3) I have access to 24/7 professional technical support, with in-house
Alfresco expertise. Any problems can be troubleshot within minutes, at
any time of day or night, with no problems of people on vacation,
sick, etc.

4) On my server, I have full root access and full control over all the
other software running on the server. I can't have that on a TDF
server.

5) On my server, I can peacefully reboot the system at any time and,
generally, do anything I want, without having to worry about other
users, running software, etc. And one does need to anticipate
occasional *total* system outages during the running-in period.

6) On my server, I can do memory and disk space upgrades 24/7 within
minutes. That kind of turnaround will not be available on a TDF
server.

7) The server is hosted in a secure data center in the UK, and
automated backups are taken at regular intervals, under my control.

8) You and Christian already have admin access to the Alfresco back
end. You can also both have permanent SSH user accounts to inspect the
server, suggest security improvements, etc. But you will find pretty
much the same security arrangements as I found on
documentfoundation.org.

9) I undertake to provide TDF with the best-possible service, and to
work on building a strong docs team and documentation base for
LibreOffice. I will also make a major effort in the future to expand
the number of active docs contributors within the LibreOffice project.

If you agree, the sub-domain name I would suggest would be
alfresco.libreoffice.org.

What do you think? :wink:

David Nelson

From my point of view, Alfresco is great, but just for better understanding,

who is sponsoring your server? What would be your benefit?

And how can you warranty the uptime and performance and for how long?

Cheers!

JFWIW - Alfresco looks like an OpenOffice.org-like, single-vendor
dominated, copyright-assignment-based, pseudo-Free-Software project to
me :slight_smile:

  As such, I'm no fan of it personally; but luckily I don't have to use
it :wink: so if there is nothing else that works well for the job perhaps
we have to. Do we have to run it ourselves though ? [ surely we could
just give a domain-name re-direct to David's existing machine ].

  ATB,

    Michael.

Come on, an Alfresco image is even offered by Amazon, you can download the
Community version, which is certified only to work with OpenSource, so the
only problem is that it doesn't work with proprietary SW (e.g. Windows). You
can try it out yourself: http://www.alfresco.com/try/

There are other big, medium & small vendors offering services and
integrating Alfresco to their business.

And here you find the SourceCode:

http://wiki.alfresco.com/wiki/Source_Code

Cheers!

David,

sorry if I joined discussion only late, maybe my questions have been
answered already, so bear with me please.

All the active members of the docs team have accounts on the Alfresco
site I'm hosting right now.

1) Is there any integration (planned?) with odfauthors or is it just
about a new and different place to produce documentation (specific for
libreoffice maybe)?

2) what about the l10n people? Are they involved already or is it
planned to involve them? Or is it just about to create "international"
(i.e. English) documents (optionally serving as master for translation)?

Nino

Hi, :slight_smile:

1) Is there any integration (planned?) with odfauthors or is it just
about a new and different place to produce documentation (specific for
libreoffice maybe)?

IMHO, it is in the best interests of LibreOffice project for the
LibreOffice documentation project to have its own workflow, expertise
and policies for LibreOffice documentation.

However, I proactively asked Jean Weber (odfauthors.org) to be part of
the Alfresco site and the LibreOffice documentation team. I invited
her to have an admin account on the Alfresco site, and actually gave
her one despite her only-lukewarm interest, to encourage her close
participation.

But she is very taken up with odfauthors, and does not seem want any
close involvement in the LibreOffice documentation team. I even
suggested to her to take team leadership of the LibreOffice docs team
two times in the past. But she's very much occupied with odfauthors.

In any case, no matter what similarities there might be between OOo
and LibO right at present, the two products are quickly going to
diverge. LibreOffice might as well start developing its own
documentation team and expertise now.

2) what about the l10n people? Are they involved already or is it
planned to involve them? Or is it just about to create "international"
(i.e. English) documents (optionally serving as master for translation)?

There is every opportunity for interested l10n people to work with
Alfresco, and I have been intending to throw open an invitation. But
I've held back on that until a) the SC grants me a remit to operate an
Alfresco server for the project and b) I've been able to consult and
liaise with Sophie Gauthier beforehand.

who is sponsoring your server?

No-one is sponsoring it. I operate it myself.

What would be your benefit?

The pleasure, interest and kudos of working for TDF and the
LibreOffice Open Source project?
Worthwhile professional experience?

And how can you warranty the uptime and performance and for how long?

The server is hosted in a high-quality, secure data center in the UK,
with all the security and backup systems you find in such modern
infrastructures. I can't *warranty* the server uptime and performances
beyond a best-effort, good-faith commitment and the guarantees offered
by the data center. But Open Source projects don't offer better, do
they?

For how long? Not beyond my death, in any case. Up to then, things
should be OK. But, seriously, I would always cooperate in all good
faith in a handover, and would always make best arrangements not to
damage the LibreOffice project's interests. I *care* about the
project, and I *care* about my reputation. :wink:

Florian, SC, please read my post below:

David Nelson

Need I point out that Jean has been running OOoAuthors for the last six
or seven years. Until roughly six months ago, that team wrote
documentation for one program --- OOo. Within the last six months that
team has been "asked" to assume responsibility for providing
documentation for five or six different programs. (The precise number
depends upon what you count as a different program.) In light of that
expanded role, they changed their name to ODFAuthors.

ODFAuthors has to change how they write documentation, and their entire
work-flow process, if they are to adequately provide adequate
documentation for each of those programs.

jonathon

Hi David, Nino, *,

Hi, :slight_smile:

> 1) Is there any integration (planned?) with odfauthors or is it just
> about a new and different place to produce documentation (specific for
> libreoffice maybe)?

IMHO, it is in the best interests of LibreOffice project for the
LibreOffice documentation project to have its own workflow, expertise
and policies for LibreOffice documentation.

That's not correct. There is currently a workflow activated that equates the last
workflow of OOoAuthors.org. But it is posible to change this workflow for the whole
site (if the author teams agree) or for only one part (e.g. the LibreOffice part).
Thus I think the workflow should not be the reason to have a special platform.

However, I proactively asked Jean Weber (odfauthors.org) to be part of
the Alfresco site and the LibreOffice documentation team. I invited
her to have an admin account on the Alfresco site, and actually gave
her one despite her only-lukewarm interest, to encourage her close
participation.

But she is very taken up with odfauthors, and does not seem want any
close involvement in the LibreOffice documentation team. I even
suggested to her to take team leadership of the LibreOffice docs team
two times in the past. But she's very much occupied with odfauthors.

But if both documentation teams (partial the same people) work in the same
environment together, it would be posible to learn from each other.

Regards,
Andreas

Hi Andreas, :slight_smile:

You're obviously entitled to your opinions, and I'm obviously entitled
to mine. :wink:

But this is a request that I'm submitting to the SC for their consideration.

David Nelson

Hi David, *,

Hi Andreas, :slight_smile:

You're obviously entitled to your opinions, and I'm obviously entitled
to mine. :wink:

But this is a request that I'm submitting to the SC for their
consideration.

I read your submitting already.

As I wrote long time ago to you on one our lists (I don't remember on which), we are
on mailinglists and nobody needs your posts a second, a third .... time.

Every mailinglist has an archive and many user have an archive on there PC too. Thus
it is not necessary to sent every thing twice etc.
You should also keep in mind that some users get their mails on landline (not DSL).

Regards,
Andreas
- long time active member of the community (since 2002) -

Hi Andreas, :slight_smile:

Thought: I think that odfauthors.org is a great resource for smaller
Open Source projects that don't have the people, time or resources to
properly develop their own documentation.

But I think it's in the best interests of a *major* software project
like LibreOffice to have an in-house documentation team that is really
specialized in the product.

David Nelson

Hi David, *,

I don't know what is your purpose. You sent your submitting to the SC a third time
now (if I count right). Why are you doing this. I told you in my last mail that this
is not necessary. You pay no attention to the netiquette. What's the reason for your
behavior? I'm very curious.

Hi Andreas, :slight_smile:

Thought: I think that odfauthors.org is a great resource for smaller
Open Source projects that don't have the people, time or resources to
properly develop their own documentation.

It seemed to me as if you have no knowledge about the power of the Plone CMS (in its
current version).

But I think it's in the best interests of a *major* software project
like LibreOffice to have an in-house documentation team that is really
specialized in the product.

Did you know how big the documentation team of OOo is (was). We are in the tradition
of OOo here. We continue our former work under a new roof under different conditions.

Regards,
Andreas

Hi Andreas, :slight_smile:

IMHO, the odfauthors.org software is far from being an ideal tool for
the LibreOffice docs team.

A) The odfauthors.org software is a product of a past time, when
leading-edge systems like Alfresco had not yet reached maturity, that
does not have all the features and power of a full-blooded content
development system like Alfresco: a mature version control system;
powerful and sophisticated workflow management; powerful content
search capability able to search within the managed content; built-in
discussion system that lets you anchor a discussion on a particular
content object; easy updating and uploading of content from directly
within the LibreOffice applications, via the Alfresco plugin for
OOo/LibO; etc.

B) The odfauthors.org software is a hybrid, one-off, custom
application without any community taking its development forward. The
odfauthors.org system is a software dead-end, based upon a CMS that is
not very widely used, for which little technical support is available
except from a small group of developers. Alfresco has an entire
community behind it.

C) The odfauthors.org software does not have the capabilities of
Alfresco to cater to the LibreOffice project's future needs for a
sophisticated product that can integrate closely with the project's
other development systems. Alfresco can provide a powerful platform
for the production and maintenance of developer documentation: API
manuals, etc. The odfauthors.org software cannot compete with it
feature-wise: it is a fairly manual system that is now dated.

However, Andreas, please may I respectfully ask you to understand
that, in this thread, I am trying to have a conversation with the SC
members, and that I very much want them to be able to read my ideas
without the thread being filled with OT comments about my posting
habits, etc. You are actually giving rise to more posts in the thread
than are necessary, and are making my actual topic harder to follow.
Could you please respect my right to communicate with the SC? Thank
you for your kindness if so. :wink:

If you want to continue a discussion of the relative merits of the two
products, may I ask you to reply to this post in a *new and separate
thread*? Thank you for your understanding if so. :wink:

David Nelson

Hello all,

Short note:
We will be discussing this tonight at our SC confcall.It has been put
on our agenda.

Best,

Hello,

for the records: During one of the last SC calls, we agreed to connect that server as alfresco.libreoffice.org.

I am still busy with fighting my inbox, but I will manage taking care of the DNS stuff hopefully soon. :slight_smile:

Florian

Hi :slight_smile:

I find if i clear 150 mails per day then i can usually manage to "turn the tide"
a little and start clearing the backlog from my inbox.

Luckily by dealing with the latest in a long thread means the rest of the mails
in the same thread can be deleted with only a quick glance.

Don't forget to take a break! Please don't reply to this email, just delete it!

Good luck and regards from
Tom :slight_smile: