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El 27/6/22 a las 19:28, Cor Nouws escribió:
Hi Sophie, all,

sophi wrote on 27/06/2022 22:09:

I'm opening a new thread because I would like to clarify a bit my position on why this is necessary for TDF to have an online version and why I think it's possible if we all take a balanced position and listen to each others.

I believe delivering LibreOffice on centralized online services in resource-constrained environments and on Android powered tablets and phones is explicitly part of our mission.

It is a fair choice to believe that. I think not the only valid one.

So for me the topic is not do we want to compete each other, but do we want to complete each other. And if we brainstorm on that common goal,

We see a clear winn-winn currently with Collabora Online.. Not only it is promoting LibreOffice (since clearly based on LibreOffice Technology), of course open source code to the best standards (anyone can join, study, build, contribute, share, fork), with non limited free versions available, and with an open community with many we know.. but it is also allowing the ecosystem to have it's role, as we thought out it would be wonderful when setting up the foundation, to contribute significant to TDF and LibreOffice as a result of the companies investments and risk taking and capabilities to deal with the commercial markets.

Win-win is a situation to which we all aspire. However, one of the key pieces in this mutant puzzle is to broaden the ecosystem rather than narrow it. And, in this sense, clear rules and boundaries are necessary. TDF cannot force the entire mass of LibreOffice users to consume a particular product. It can, however, improve it's work to raise awareness about the importance of contributing (which is not reduced to code) to the community that embraces the project.

I'm sure we will find ways to be beneficial for both the ecosystem and the foundation and that should even broaden the ecosystem.

Yes. Finding balance between ecosystem members and TDF is not easy. In the Autumn of 2020 we learned the hard way that it can be easily broken. So indeed we have to be respectful and considerate.
Community can ask the very same. Suffice it to recall that the door was slammed when the foundation was working on the required marketing plan.
I cannot believe that there is a clear and conscientious will in TDF to compete with it's own ecosystem. And I agree with you that, also when there is an online under TDF infrastructure (which no one can nor want to forbid, since we have a meritocratic community. And for which we know what is reasonable and asked for to have a sensible fair project) we must have ways to simply not compete with the ecosystem.

I still don't understand why people resort to self-flagellation by arguing that TDF is trying to compete with the ecosystem. I think Sophi has put it very well by saying that there are spaces for everyone and that worldwide not all users are able to pay a subscription to access a product. In Latin America, for example, there are countless social organizations or organizations linked to indigenous peoples whose main role is to narrow the gap in access to technology. Sound familiar?

And for growing the ecosystem: both mentoring and projects to find new markets/parties that understand the opportunities and want to do some investment are needed. Let's (again) try to focus on work like that, would be my suggestion.

TDF has to  take care of those left over users anyway.

Not sure what you mean with that.

Some may reply that it doesn't fulfill the technical part, but to my eyes, if we get room for everyone, community will show up to help filling the gap.

It is encouraging to see, apart from some problems as pointed out by others, enthusiasm. But hmmm..., with all history, discussions and careful working on proposals, I think it is not unfair if I notify that it is somehow late. Then of course: better late then not at all ;)

I believe that neither TDF nor the community can be blamed for not satisfying the whims of a company.

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