[steering-discuss] decision on screenshots

Hi :slight_smile:
It's easy to make empty promises but there is nothing written down to say that
the Steering Committee and BoD would accept any responsibility at all. The risk
is all on individual contributors at the moment.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
There were a reasonable amount of "+1"s to the first draft produced by Florian
and no-one voted against it then or after the meeting. We had just heard the
advice of a couple of legal people one of whom specialises in this type of
area.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

:slight_smile:

What is the precise issue you have with the proposed amended language, Tom? Please be specific so we aren't just appealing to the gallery here. I assert that the language I am proposing is a minor change that has the same effect as the earlier text but ensures we do not leave hostages to fortune.

Are there any others sharing Tom's concern please?

S.

/:slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
The precise problem i have with the amended wording is that it reverses the
meaning of the 2 paragraphs. Florian did a minor adjustment but your's
completely changes it to say the opposite of the original.

I suspect that no-one on the SC or BoD has any legal training or experience in
this area of law even for just the US let alone globally. The couple of
experienced legal professionals that were able to let the list know their
opinions last time are probably not thrilled with the idea of again spending
time to give advice again about the same issue. Can the SC stand by a decision
it made a couple of months ago or not? Should we ignore legal opinion and go
with whatever seems like "common sense"?
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

:slight_smile:

It does nothing of the sort.

/:slight_smile:

Hi Simon,

This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. I'd suggest saying:

"The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical risk facing software projects."

not totally. IIRC, Microsoft claimed that taking screenshots will breach the EULA. So, to me, although it is a lot of FUD, it is a bit different to any "normal" (unclaimed) risks in daily open source work.

To bring this topic to an end, I tried to incorporate all changes into the following statement - thoughts welcome:

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system.

The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency.

Can we all live with that?

Florian

Hi,

Florian Effenberger wrote (10-08-11 10:21)

To bring this topic to an end, I tried to incorporate all changes into
the following statement - thoughts welcome:

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably
be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system.

OK

The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk
involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels
that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk
free software projects face.

The Steering Committee notices there are discussions about a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but does not feel the need to make any advise on this and also takes no liability whatever in this matter.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g.
theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It
is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency.

OK

Hi :slight_smile:
I can live with that.

I would prefer it if "theming" was replaced with "Branding" and "risk" with
"risks". Also the line
"but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical
risk free software projects face."

replaced with
"but it feels that the legal risk involved is low and easily avoided by using
screen-shots from Gnu&Linux where possible."

However, i think Florian's new version is plenty good enough.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

HI :slight_smile:
No, absolutely not. Totally disagree. The 2nd paragraph as written by Cor
contradicts the first paragraph and will push people into using Windows for
screen-shots. It then states that individuals will be prosecuted if at all
possible if any breach of Eula does go to court. This is NOT acceptable imo.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi,

The Steering Committee notices there are discussions about a small legal
risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but does
not feel the need to make any advise on this and also takes no liability
whatever in this matter.

we cannot exclude liability. As soon as TDF issues documentation, in cases of gross negligence, the BoD will be held liable later on.

Florian

--
Simon Phipps, http://webmink.com/
+44 774 776 2816 or +1 415 683 7660
Independent Global Open Source Expertise

On 10 Aug 2011, at 09:21, Florian Effenberger wrote:

Hi Simon,

Simon Phipps wrote on 2011-08-07 14:44:

This is too strong. The fact is, every action any project takes is subject to legal risk. Name one that isn't. All that's happened here is that (for whatever motive) the theoretical risk has been articulated for (a part of) this case. I'd suggest saying:

"The Steering Committee feels that the legal risk involved in using screenshots of non-free desktops in documentation is no greater than any other theoretical risk facing software projects."

not totally. IIRC, Microsoft claimed that taking screenshots will breach the EULA.

Do you have a reference where? I have only seen speculative interpretation of the EULA.

So, to me, although it is a lot of FUD, it is a bit different to any "normal" (unclaimed) risks in daily open source work.

To bring this topic to an end, I tried to incorporate all changes into the following statement - thoughts welcome:

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system.

The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency.

Can we all live with that?

I think it is a mistake to state that the SC acknowledges a risk. It is a hostage to fortune in the event of litigation, and it's not necessary to state.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <floeff@documentfoundation.org>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Florian Effenberger wrote (10-08-11 12:22)

Hi,

The Steering Committee notices there are discussions about a small legal
risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but does
not feel the need to make any advise on this and also takes no liability
whatever in this matter.

we cannot exclude liability. As soon as TDF issues documentation, in
cases of gross negligence, the BoD will be held liable later on.

Yes of course. With that explanation, your 2nd paragraph is OK for me.

Thanks,

Unfortunately that ship has sailed... too late now, the harm is
already done.... but sure, keeping it as a standing policy is worse.

Norbert

Hi,

based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on:

==
Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other operating system.

The Steering Committee acknowledges that there is a small legal risk involved for screenshots on non-free operating systems, but it feels that the legal risk involved is no greater than other theoretical risk free software projects face.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g. theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve that consistency.

Are there any severe objections and concerns (please no "beauty corrections", only severe changes), or can we start the SC vote?

Florian

Hi :slight_smile:
+1

Possibly omit the middle paragraph. It would leave the statement without an
explanation but at least it would state what the preference is.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

+1

Hi Florian,

based on the feedback, this would be my proposal to vote on:

I suppose the minor corrections below fall in the category of the
"beauty corrections" you mentioned, but the SC's decision might be
clearer for some people if the grammar is perfect. FWIW, I'd agree
with Tom and Paulo that the second para ("The Steering Committee
acknowledges that there is...") serves no purpose. So that would give:

"Screenshots for documentation, website and marketing should
preferably be taken on GNU/Linux, but may also be taken on any other
operating system.

The Steering Committee recommends a consistent visual appearance (e.g.
theming and branding) for the screenshots taken on the selected
operating system. It is up to the LibreOffice community how to achieve
that consistency."

HTH.

I agree with that. The second paragraph serve no practical purpose.

Norbert

I'm amused that the point I was making has been taken on board silently; naturally I agree :slight_smile:

S.

Hi :slight_smile:
It's all good. We get there in the end. Hopefully in a more elegant and less
turgid way next time!
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile: