[steering-discuss] SC calls via Mumble or OpenMeetings

Hello,

we discussed the Mumble and OpenMeetings topic during our admin meeting. Just to make this clear, as there have been some misunderstandings:

In my opinion, the Steering Committee calls will take place on the regular phone line in the future as well. I do *not* anticipate Mumble or OpenMeetings for that, as often people join from on the road, and a normal dial-in is not possible with Mumble or OpenMeetings. SIP trunking seems to be not possible.

However, those two tools might be an option for marketing, website or design meetings.

Florian

Florian Effenberger wrote:

In my opinion, the Steering Committee calls will take place on the
regular phone line in the future as well. I do *not* anticipate
Mumble or OpenMeetings for that, as often people join from on the
road, and a normal dial-in is not possible with Mumble or
OpenMeetings. SIP trunking seems to be not possible.

I'd slightly alter that statement - it seems there's a mumble client
for Android in beta state, and some work around an iOS version, too.
And since we don't have dial-in numbers for a number of far-away
countries, it may at some point in time become the lesser of two
evils.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

It looks like there is Freeswitch integration with Mumble; see
http://wiki.freeswitch.org/wiki/Mumble_conference_with_alsa

S.

Hi,

thanks for the feedback. The problem is that there will be no one-fits-it-all-solution, but we rather have to find something that is the best compromise.

The current phone conference infrastructure provides a lot of dial-in numbers. It has its drawbacks, like some countries missing and the web interface only available in German. However, some other problems are not to be fixed with that, like

* time zone
* availability of a phone or local dial-in
* availability of broadband internet

Setting up an own Asterisk or FreeSwitch server cannot solve all problems either, as we can not get local dial-ins for a good price. It would cost us hundreds of EUR per month if we do it totally on our own.

So, my take for the "basic" conferences is to use talkyoo as we do now, and try to get more people in by using either Skype, or our own Asterisk. However, for that to happen, I need *feedback* from those affected by missing local dial-in numbers whether they can use Skype, or in which country they are, so we can check for dial-in numbers.

My impression is that a lot of people who can dial-in anyways are working on the topic, but feedback from the affected people is missing. It doesn't help having Mumble, when colleagues from another country cannot join anyways, as they have only slow internet.

So, again, *please*, those who cannot join the conferences, but *want* to (this is important as well!), *please* give feedback on why and what your preferred solution would be.

That's for the majority of phone conferences. Of course, there will be some special conferences where something like OpenMeetings comes in handy.

Florian

Hi Florian, *,

The current phone conference infrastructure provides a lot of dial-in
numbers. It has its drawbacks, like some countries missing and the web
interface only available in German. However, some other problems are not to
be fixed with that, like

* time zone
* availability of a phone or local dial-in
* availability of broadband internet

Good thing about mumble is that it doesn't require broadband connection
http://mumble.sourceforge.net/FAQ/English#What_are_the_bandwidth_requirements.3F

"With top quality, minimum latency and positional information sent, it
is 133.6 kbit/s including the IP and UDP overhead. With 60 ms
transmission delay, the lowest quality speech and no positional
information, it is 17.4 kbit/s (again with IP and UDP overhead). The
default quality setting uses 58.8 kbit/s."

So even with a modem dial-up, you should be fine.

Setting up an own Asterisk or FreeSwitch server cannot solve all problems
either, as we can not get local dial-ins for a good price. It would cost us
hundreds of EUR per month if we do it totally on our own.

I agree - so the ideal solution would just hook both traditional
phone-lines and mumble together. That would require one system that
can dial in to talkyoo and acts as a bridge to mumble - i.e. a
softphone that listen on both and forwards to both. (Well, depending
on how well echo-cancellation works, one might need two
one-directional systems here.

So, my take for the "basic" conferences is to use talkyoo as we do now, and
try to get more people in by using either Skype,

When you mention Skype, you have the same/worse bandwidth requirements

or our own Asterisk.
However, for that to happen, I need *feedback* from those affected by
missing local dial-in numbers whether they can use Skype, or in which
country they are, so we can check for dial-in numbers.

For me, it is not just about dial-in numbers. WIth talkyoo system,
there is a vast difference in quality in the participants,
specifically the volume of the various speakers, one very faint, the
other really loud, sometimes lots of background noise,...
mumble has a audio-setup-wizard that helps setting up the microphone
levels, etc. (although it is not trivial to get the system's
microphone settings right on all systems - you must not echo the
microphone directly to the speakers for example - and the default
gnome-mixer-applet doesn't offer a switch for that, so you have to
resort to gnome-alsamixer/another mixer-application to configure it m-
similar problems on Windows (probably depends on hardware and the
corresponding driver-software)
Mumble has the advantage that it also offers visual indication when
someone speaks ("red lips" = talking, "grey lips" = user is not
talking) - so its easier to follow a discussion when you don't
recognize people by their voice, and its easier to not talk
simultaneously without noticing (a "loud" speaker cancelling out a
"faint" speaker).
Additionally, there is the possibility to have written notices (to
paste URLs and similar)

My impression is that a lot of people who can dial-in anyways are working on
the topic, but feedback from the affected people is missing. It doesn't help
having Mumble, when colleagues from another country cannot join anyways, as
they have only slow internet.

Well, indeed. That's the real dealbreaker here.

So, again, *please*, those who cannot join the conferences, but *want* to
(this is important as well!), *please* give feedback on why and what your
preferred solution would be.

If you want to try out mumble with someone, don't hesitate to announce
a time when you want to test it - I'm sure there will be someone who
can assist/help by joining the channel (after all you cannot test
bidirectional communication when you're the only person in the room
:slight_smile:

That's for the majority of phone conferences. Of course, there will be some
special conferences where something like OpenMeetings comes in handy.

I'd not call it conferences.. OpenMeetings is more for presentations,
where one person talks and other people are mainly listening. For that
it provides the whiteboard (i.e. you can show a presentation and draw
on the slides) and also video (but when using those features of course
you need the bandwidth again). It relies on flash, and is much more
difficult to use compared to mumble (and there is no way (at least not
obvious to me) on how to adjust the microphone level, so at least on
my system the level would be way too low, people won't hear me...)

But again I second Florian's question:
Those who are affected by the lack of dial-in numbers provided by
talkyoo - what would be the best alternative in your opinion?
( ) Skype
( ) OpenMeetings
( ) Mumble
( ) neither, need regular landline number
( ) other, please specify _______________________

Alternatively, you might point out why a given solution is not a valid
alternative (I cannot use xxx because yyyy)

ciao
Christian

Hi all,
[...]

But again I second Florian's question:
Those who are affected by the lack of dial-in numbers provided by
talkyoo - what would be the best alternative in your opinion?
( ) Skype
( ) OpenMeetings
( ) Mumble
( ) neither, need regular landline number
( ) other, please specify _______________________

Alternatively, you might point out why a given solution is not a valid
alternative (I cannot use xxx because yyyy)

I think we should wait after the elections to ask the people there what are their preferred/needed solution, it really differs depending the countries.
Concerning myself, I've decided to stay in Europe for a while, most probably in Paris, so there should be no issue for me whatever the tool we use in the future. I'll arrive in Europe in mid-July.

Kind regards
Sophie

Hi,

"With top quality, minimum latency and positional information sent, it
is 133.6 kbit/s including the IP and UDP overhead. With 60 ms
transmission delay, the lowest quality speech and no positional
information, it is 17.4 kbit/s (again with IP and UDP overhead). The
default quality setting uses 58.8 kbit/s."

that indeed sounds good.

I agree - so the ideal solution would just hook both traditional
phone-lines and mumble together. That would require one system that
can dial in to talkyoo and acts as a bridge to mumble - i.e. a
softphone that listen on both and forwards to both. (Well, depending
on how well echo-cancellation works, one might need two
one-directional systems here.

Such gateway wqould be what I'm looking forward to, may it be with Mumble, Skype or anything else. For Skype, you can buy a SIP trunk, but that is quite expensive, about 6-7 USD per month and line, so something with Mumble could be better. Simon already pointed out Mumble can connect to FreeSwitch, we might have to investigate.

But again I second Florian's question:
Those who are affected by the lack of dial-in numbers provided by
talkyoo - what would be the best alternative in your opinion?
( ) Skype
( ) OpenMeetings
( ) Mumble
( ) neither, need regular landline number
( ) other, please specify _______________________

Alternatively, you might point out why a given solution is not a valid
alternative (I cannot use xxx because yyyy)

+1. Let's wait for that feedback first, before we make plans. My ideal solution would be something plus PTSN/VoIP gateway.

Florian

I would like to volunteer my mumble server.

I work at a data center and i have my own VPS given to me here for my business and i am actually thinking of offering mumble services as part of my business for a small fee. Obviously to the TDF there would be no charge.

Let me know if you guys are interested in me setting up a channel for the TDF and LO with password protection.

Hi,

I would like to volunteer my mumble server.

I work at a data center and i have my own VPS given to me here for my
business and i am actually thinking of offering mumble services as part
of my business for a small fee. Obviously to the TDF there would be no
charge.

Let me know if you guys are interested in me setting up a channel for
the TDF and LO with password protection.

thanks for that! As far as I know, we already have a Mumble test server
running.

Florian

Florian

If you guys dont just let me know and ill get working on setting it up :smiley:

Hi,

If you guys dont just let me know and ill get working on setting it up :smiley:

best is to follow the website mailing list, there the setup is discussed :wink:

Florian

Hi *,

If you guys dont just let me know and ill get working on setting it up :smiley:

best is to follow the website mailing list, there the setup is discussed :wink:

See the messages around
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05303.html
(and that messages specifically when you have problems accepting the
self-created server certificate)

Short: connect to vm3.documentfoundation.org on the default port 64738

Currently it is mumble 1.2.2 only, so recording doesn't work, but for
evaluating the system itself this doesn't really matter.

ciao
Christian

Hi *,

If you guys dont just let me know and ill get working on setting it up :smiley:

best is to follow the website mailing list, there the setup is discussed :wink:

See the messages around
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05303.html
(and that messages specifically when you have problems accepting the
self-created server certificate)

Any chance version 1.2.3 can be setup to test that issue above to see if it has been solved if not i would forward that to mumble devs.

Sry to post again here, but what would the username be? What have the german users specified?

Hi Jonathan, *,

See the messages around
http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05303.html
(and that messages specifically when you have problems accepting the
self-created server certificate)

Short: connect to vm3.documentfoundation.org on the default port 64738

Currently it is mumble 1.2.2 only, so recording doesn't work, but for
evaluating the system itself this doesn't really matter.

Sry to post again here, but what would the username be? What have the german
users specified?

Username is your own choice. If you got a IRC-nick you're known by,
just use that.

And regarding the certificate accept-problem in non-C locale: 1.2.3
clients are not affected apparently.

ciao
Christian

Ill have to try again i seem to be having issues creating a username and password, but i guess ill have to create my own certificate or something on that no?

Hi Jonathan, *,

Username is your own choice. If you got a IRC-nick you're known by,
just use that.
[...]

Ill have to try again i seem to be having issues creating a username and
password,

There is no password involved. Authentification/Encryption works with
the certificates

but i guess ill have to create my own certificate or something on
that no?

Yes, just use the mumble wizard and have it create a certificate for
you. When you start mumble for the first time, it should have prompted
you with a dialog to either import an existing one, or create a
self-signed one. The certificate is used to encrypt the communication,
very similar to https.
The certificate is also used for authentication for special
user-rights (like creating channels, and all .....)

If you were not offered the wizards on first launch, you should also
run the audio-setup wizard manually.

ciao
Christian

I have used it for something else so i should have the certificate already as i setup my own server already. Are you on there? One perk i see with this unlike skype is you have a push to talk button you can set so that way you wont hear anyone speak unless said button is pressed down.

Just to let you know no certificate issues here