[steering-discuss] Quo Vadis TDF Development - paid support based model ?

Hi all,

A recent discussion on the developer list has brought me to ask myself
where, if anywhere, there is a positive statement or decision on
development strategy that implies or explicitly mentions that
"enterprise stability" can/will only be expected in the LibreOffice
product if companies / administrations / large user bases buy support
contracts ?

This has repercussions for me to the extent that it is not how I
envisaged, or indeed, how I understood, the project to be grounded. It
shows what I feel is a certain lack of consideration for those people
from business communities who have contributed in the past to improving
the product (in its largest sense, i.e. from OOo times), creating
documentation, bug hunting and triaging, and who probably helped with
the donations to create the foundation in the first place.

Any pointers would be useful.

TIA,

Alex

Alexander Thurgood wrote:

This has repercussions for me to the extent that it is not how I
envisaged, or indeed, how I understood, the project to be grounded. It
shows what I feel is a certain lack of consideration for those people
from business communities who have contributed in the past to improving
the product (in its largest sense, i.e. from OOo times), creating
documentation, bug hunting and triaging, and who probably helped with
the donations to create the foundation in the first place.

Hi Alex,

TDF's mission surely also includes catering for 'business' users.
Our ability to perform that will grow over time (remember, we're
starting this organisation from scratch) - and encouraging people
who can afford it to get paid support from one of our member
companies helps the project a lot.

Now, for your notion that you don't have a say - in fact you have,
as a member of the project, you can collectively influence many more
things than there was ever possible at OOo - including how money is
spent in the future. Please *do* feel encouraged to apply for
membership - if you want to affect change, that's the best advice I
can give.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

Hi Thorsten, all,

TDF's mission surely also includes catering for 'business' users.
Our ability to perform that will grow over time (remember, we're
starting this organisation from scratch) - and encouraging people
who can afford it to get paid support from one of our member
companies helps the project a lot.

Yes, and I was not questioning the fact that TDF _needs_ to cater to
businesses, in whichever way it may decide to do so, merely the absence
of a clear public statement to that effect. If TDF want normal "run of
the mill" businesses to adhere to the using/supporting of LibreOffice,
then they require clear direction. As Sophie has mentioned, clear
communication is vital, and I just don't see that at present (or perhaps
I haven't looked hard enough).

Now, for your notion that you don't have a say - in fact you have,
as a member of the project, you can collectively influence many more
things than there was ever possible at OOo - including how money is
spent in the future. Please *do* feel encouraged to apply for
membership - if you want to affect change, that's the best advice I
can give.

Actually, I have never doubted that, and my words certainly weren't
intended to be taken that way. If I were not to have a say at all, I
would probably already have been banned from the lists as a
trouble-maker :wink:

As to membership, well I have now been invited to apply by at least 4
different people within TDF - I feel very flattered :-)) However, I am a
bit of a stickler for the "what am I getting myself into ?" question
(sorry, its a lawyer thing) : committing oneself to the project without
knowing all the rules (both spoken/written and unspoken/unwritten - in
fact there should never be unspoken rules in a truly open project)
upfront is not something I do lightly. Again, it all comes down to
communication. All of us "oldies" know how difficult communication was
with Sun at times, and I am sincerely concerned that "we" are heading
down the same road. For a project with its current past history not to
have learned from that past history that good communication is an
overriding factor when so many different "cultures (both linguistic,
commercial and technical" are involved is, for me personally at least, a
major cause for concern.

But I hear your reply already : "Then become a member and help change
things" :wink:

I might just do that.

Alex

Hi Alex,

"enterprise stability" can/will only be expected in the LibreOffice
product if companies / administrations / large user bases buy support
contracts ?

  So - it is fairly clear that TDF will not be providing enterprise
support itself - and it is clear that others are/will-be. If you are a
large enterprise or government, I would view it as a madness not to have
a support relationship with someone. That is, unless ( through the merit
generated by your good works, and other contributions :slight_smile: you can
persuade various developers to care about and fix your bugs on whatever
deployed version of LibreOffice you happen to be using, and are happy
you can wangle that sort of thing in some timely fashion each time there
is an issue.

  Of course, lots of people disagree with me. They tend also to rave
about the joys of running production servers using the latest bleeding
edge, volunteer created, compile-from-source kernel + apache ( for a web
example :wink: so ... it is clear that one-size does not fit all here. But
I personally would question the sanity of that :wink:

  Also - the idea of corporate entities that can pay - simply avoiding
supporting development financially, and instead trying to arm-twist
volunteers and others into fixing their bugs is not that flattering: I'm
sure neither of us would want to encourage that.

  ATB,

    Michael.

Michael Meeks wrote:

So - it is fairly clear that TDF will not be providing enterprise
support itself - and it is clear that others are/will-be.

Can I ask if this is a choice or a contingent duty related to the legal nature of the Foundation in Germany?

Regards,

Gianluca

TDF has chosen not to provide enterprise support directly, but it will build - and maintain - an ecosystem where companies of any size will be able to provide such a support being "certified" (recognized) by TDF. I am working at this program (unfortunately, it is taking an awful amount of time for problems not related to TDF).

Ciao Italo,

Italo Vignoli wrote:

TDF has chosen not to provide enterprise support directly, but it will
build - and maintain - an ecosystem where companies of any size will be
able to provide such a support being "certified" (recognized) by TDF. I
am working at this program (unfortunately, it is taking an awful amount
of time for problems not related to TDF).

Again, just to have more info: will it be a *paid* certification?

Regards,

Gianluca

Yes, we see it as a source of revenues for TDF, in order to fund development and other activities, although we must be careful as there will be different levels of involvement (and different fees, including zero fees for people and companies already contributing to the project with activities and developers). Also, several TDF contributors will work on the certification process. Difficult task, but challenging for everyone, as it is really a chance to define a new business model for FOSS projects.

Hi Gianluca,

Italo Vignoli wrote:
> TDF has chosen not to provide enterprise support directly, but it will
> build - and maintain - an ecosystem where companies of any size will be
> able to provide such a support being "certified" (recognized) by TDF.

..

Again, just to have more info: will it be a *paid* certification?

  I don't see a company being able to support LibreOffice, without also
contributing code and their fixes back to the project: so at some stage
they pay already by contributing bodies :slight_smile:

  Of course, perhaps they'd do that by re-selling other people's support,
or being back-stopped by a bigger party - either way I look forward to
Italo's work.

  ATB,

    Michael.

These are all good news.

Indeed, I'm not the greatest fan of a Foundation/Corporation dualism "à la Mozilla", because of too commistions of interests, so the new business model looks like a really good idea.

BTW, is there any public ML or other collaboration tool that I can use to follow the certification process evolution? At least I'll stop my huge OT in this list. :slight_smile:

Anyway, thanks for your and Michael's reply.

Regards,

Gianluca

Unfortunately, not yet. I have started writing this document months ago, but for many different problems (time shortage, work peaks, and family issues) I have not had the time to get it to a decent stage. I have promised to do so by the end of May, and I will respect the date (although it will still be at an early stage). At that time, I will publish it on the wiki for comments and improvements.