Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Referencing systems and bibliographies in LO

[lj <ljeloudev@gmail.com>]

Firstly, Thank You for all of your responses.

I will definitely create a wiki page about this topic on
wiki.documentfoundation.org

I have already created an account.

just as a heads up... this is my first wiki page creation..

are there any pages where there are specific rules (criteria) or tips,
where i could put my wiki page? that can be given when creating a wiki page.

I will ask this in in ask.libreoffice.org.. as well..

and i will discuss this topic on zotero forums as well, i think Fabian, is
right that there should be more integration with zotero and libreoffice.

at the moment I don't have much time for me to create a fully featured wiki
page.. for discussion about referencing systems in libreoffice... but I can
create a document which will outline information about the referencing
systems as a draft, which I can then transfer the content over to the wiki
page creation. I think that is the best approach!

ljelly.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:43 AM, Fabian Rodriguez
<MagicFab@member.fsf.org>wrote:

> On 07/15/2012 09:02 AM, lj wrote:
> > In response to Fabian:
> >
> > Proposing ideas and bug fixes and changes in proprieterary software
> > probably isn't the right direction unless libreoffice have developers
> that
> > are working in partnership on referencing systems in proprieterary
> > software. Which I believe at this stage they do not.
> We agree on that.
>
> Before going any further, I'd urge you to follow Charles advice and
> formalize a wiki document with your ideas/proposal. Otherwise this will
> live and die here in the mailing list unless there is some extraordinary
> new, numerous groups of LibreOffice + bibliography users here :) Keep in
> mind you may be proposing something that already exists in other
> projects (see below).
>
> > I understand your example with microsoft onenote. A program I have used
> > myself, and I can understand its innovation and ideas, but that software
> > has broadened markets such as being available on different hardware, etc
> > the iOS platform and the Internet with storage of Microsoft skydrive.
> My main criteria for using software is it must be free, open source.
> Close second is being as good or better. If you look at mobile
> applications for Zotero, you'll see you can also use OwnCloud to store
> its database of documents - hosted on your own server. I try to
> reproduce the same functionality, or better, with free, open source
> software integration. I briefly comment on such experiments either on
> JoinDiaspora or G+:
> https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1737364
> https://plus.google.com/102415554453485274892/posts/PskhYYaDMaR
>
> Of course the feature set *at the moment* is not complete. But it's more
> often than not dictated by actual needs of its users, not mostly by
> Microsoft or some other corporation which motivation #1 (and obligation
> to shareholders) is profit. I also have greater influence and chances to
> get fixes in such projects.
>
> With this in mind I find it more productive to bring closer the
> communities of existing products like Zotero, OwnCloud and LibreOffice,
> and have them build on each other's work. The goal that you are seeking
> then looks closer to me.
>
> If I were to propose something to LibreOffice devs, it would be to
> *completely remove the current bibliographic support* and
> embrace/extend/integrate Zotero into LibO, perhaps as a default 3rd
> party extension (much like happened recently with some grammar/spelling
> dictionaries I believe). The current functionality is broken, unreliable
> and requires careful understanding to wrok at a basic level, nevermind
> at the same level as Zotero (with social sharing, remote storage,
> standard formats, etc.).
>
> > In regards to the referencing system in LO. zotero is an extension that I
> > have used with LO.  Although it works very well with compatability with
>  LO
> > its referencing systems are incompatible with Microsoft office. I think
> > that is an issue with LO, and Microsoft office referencing systems. I
> will
> > confirm this from a email from zotero about this issue.
> In my opinion you will get limited success and progress with this
> approach. With the limited resources TDF has, I doubt any developer will
> be working to make it easier for you to stay working with MS Office. A
> better use of such resources would be to demonstrate and advocate the
> use of Zotero + LibreOffice to your peers (or in the environment where
> you seem to have no choice) - and fix whatever is missing to make it
> easier for MS Office/Notes users to leave that platform.
>
> > As a result, I believe this is a main issue and concern with referencing
> > systems in LO.  compatability with properitary software referencing
> systems
> > etc MO.
> Interoperability is important, but in this case I believe the main issue
> is a component that is not critical to 100% of LIbO users, and several
> interesting alternatives (including Zotero). So this is not going to get
> critical priority assignment, IMO.
> > Referencing systems and making bibliographies I believe in LO needs to be
> > created for users with a simplistic default interface without add ons and
> > extensions to avoid in compatability with different versions of software
> > releases from zotero and LO.
> You're describing what Zotero already does (including plugins!). Why
> duplicate efforts? See my rationale above about getting those projects
> working together, rather than reinventing such tools.
>
>
> > My problem is having a reference from libreoffice and trying to use it on
> > Mo. it is not compatible.
> LibreOffice happens to have a basic tool for a bibliography database.
> The problem is not incompatibility, the problem is having the
> expectation it will become One Note (which is primarily to take notes,
> not references, as I understand it) overnight (or "soon").
>
> > But. The only way to make the software more compatible for users is to
> > propose a new referencing system in libreoffice, that would allow the
> > document to be read in a format in which both office suites would
> > understand. An example would be PDF and integrating referencing
> > compatabilities in a PDF.  or referencing systems with .doc files.
> > I'm still not clear about this topic.
> I suppose that's possible, give OneNote's format:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onenote#File_format
>
> I'd argue with the limited/basic implementation in LibreOffice, you'd
> have better chances to convince Zotero devs to approach this. Even then,
> you would not be the first:
> http://forums.zotero.org/discussion/4007/onenote-support/
>
> Microsoft Word already "understands" Zotero quite well, BTW - via the
> clipboard. Are you allowed to use a thirs party tool like Zotero at all?
> > LO needs a new default  referencing system because I believe it is not
> > clear enough or fast enough to store references for users using
> libreoffice
> > writer. There are some confusing steps involved including using the
> > bibliographic database where functions do not make sense.
>
> My opinion on this as I wrote above is it should be completely removed.
>
> > LO should consider options I believe to make referencing separate from
> > libreoffice base and making  2 referencing systems. One that integrates a
> > utility with storing references using endnotes and footnotes with a
> simpler
> > and faster design that can be used for advanced users in base to store
> > multiple references for a main project, with a design that is based on
> the
> > storage of references only. This can be from books images videos and
> > websites.  and a simpler system for users that want to generate a
> reference
> > that is created with the usage of forms and detailed texts that can be
> > linked to end notes and footnotes without the reference being stored in
> > libreoffice base.
> >
> I encourage you to make a formal proposal, but *please* use Zotero for a
> few weeks first/meanwhile.
>
> Most of your ideas seem to be already implemented there and I fear the
> LibO project could use your help in many more productive ways!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fabian Rodriguez
> http://libreoffice.magicfab.ca
>
>
>
>
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